All TOgether

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All TOgether

Post by Jofroi on 2011-05-08, 08:11

A new organisation is born, maybe that it will soon be turned in a party if we are enough:

http://tinyurl.com/AllTOgethers

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Re: All TOgether

Post by Fhaemita Malodorous on 2011-05-08, 09:58

\o/

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Re: All TOgether

Post by Olv007 on 2011-05-08, 10:02

Why are the letters "TO" in caps? Wink
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Re: All TOgether

Post by Jofroi on 2011-05-08, 10:13

Well, it's to justify the name : ATO Wink

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Re: All TOgether

Post by shadowukcs on 2011-05-08, 10:43

Jofroi, this idea is even dumber than that time you wanted to nationalise our entire economy...


-for starters, you'd lose a big part of the population (I'm not staying in eBE if it gets merged and I know several others who will as well)
-Secondly you'll be the subject to RW's constantly
-thirdly: what ppl fail to understand is that we already had a merge once, AND IT WAS THE GREATEST FAIL (after joining Entente) IN OUR ENTIRE eHISTORY
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Re: All TOgether

Post by Mike Wooldridge on 2011-05-08, 10:57

If eBelgium and eNl united , it should be under a Belgian flag this time
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Re: All TOgether

Post by Jofroi on 2011-05-08, 10:58

Where did you saw that the main project was an ingame merge?

I said that a merge was a possibility, but I'm more in favor of a confederation for the reasons you stated. There would be the advantage of a merge without most inconvenients like RW.

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Re: All TOgether

Post by shadowukcs on 2011-05-08, 11:14

woops, didn't fully read the article at first. thought it was another "lets merge" propaganda



Here's why I think the confederation idea won't work either

The main problem is the fact that you have 2 presidents and 2 congresses. That's like putting 2 cocks in a henhouse. It's gonna give cockfights in no time because humans have the tendency to wave their cocks and scream "MINE'S THE BIGGEST" (note to innos: with cocks I mean roosters ofcourse)



1: Settle a common foreign politic policy with Netherlands

eBE and eNL have, historically, very different allies. Countries usually adapt their policies based on their stronger neighbours. Seeing as we (eFr, eUK, ... TERRA) and eNL (ePL, ... ONE) share different neighbours, this might become problematic.

Can you only imagine if ePL wants a passage to eUK trough our lands and the dutch say "yea ofc" and we say "fuckno".

2: Merge our military structures, to have a single management of the army


again, with 2 presidents in power it would be one big cockfight. President A wants to help country X because they helped them during war Y. But president B says "no" coz then ePL or eFR might see that as a breach of our neutrality.

3: Merge our currencies, and our tax policy, to strengten both markets


Jofroi, for an economic guy you're making a lot of BS here imo. We can't merge our currencies without doing a real merge. Unless you want one country to print all the currency and donate it to the other country. But then the problems that country would endure in regards to the transition of currency would be a economic catastrophe. Also, our tax policies would be dependent of our natural resources and the amount of ppl that are importing in our country.

4: Create a Common forum and IRC that would be used by both communities

meh, the dutch won't even grant me access on the their forum. they're even more paranoid than we are. Plus, there's nothing stopping them from joining our IRC now.

5: Partly merge our laws and uniformisate the constitutions

Even now, we already have problems agreeing on laws, can you imagine the drama, blood sweat and tears it would lead to when we have a congress that's double our current size? Can you only imagine the horrors that the constitutional debate will bring forth?

6: Create a confederation (or a merge, according to what is the most profitable) of eBelgium and eNetherlands


Nay. I know many ppl that would leave eBE in case of a actual merge. I'd probably see myself rallying up these ppl and launch a few daily RW's
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Re: All TOgether

Post by Jofroi on 2011-05-08, 11:35

1: Indeed we have different historical allies. But we are still both neutral countries. Moreover we can make a pact that would allow both countries to protect their sovereignty. See that as a military defense pact. A tons of countries has done it in the past.

2: Same than 1, just consider that we are militarily allied and it'll fix this.

3: We can decide to settle the import taxe at 10% for the ressources within the country and at 99% for the rest, or the opposite. Not really a problem as long as the policy is common.

For the currency, you just need to put BEF - NLG and NLG-BEF offers on the market, there is no need for a merge of the currencies.

The purpose here is to make a common economical market that would be bigger than the belgian/dutch market alone and thus stronger. We could even propose an IRC channel where people for country A would sell goods of people from country B and then give the money back. I'm already doing it for a belgian citizen that has a licence problem because he was born in NL.

4: Indeed, there are still problems within members of both communities. But this is also true within both of them. If we enforce that every citizen of both countries should have access, just make it.

And we could keep both forums and make a third one, this is also a possibility. I see it more as a technical detail than a real problem.

5: If we talk about a confederation, we can have separate laws, this is not really a problem. LEt's look at RL belgium. You have federal and federate laws. This would be the same principle and would allow to work with reduced congress. And maybe that we could ask both congressmen to elect 4-5 delegates that would work on the federal level to make law voted while the congress would keep working at a local level.

6: Well, if you don't like a merge, remain against. A confederation is just as fine for me as the main purpose is to rise the activity and the size of the community. Moreover a merge is not interesting IG for different economical reasons.

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Re: All TOgether

Post by shadowukcs on 2011-05-08, 13:47

... so you basically want to implant the entangled political f*** that's labelled "Belgium: the federalist state" in the simple game mechanics of eBE?


Turn on the news, friend. I'd say RL Belgium is p failed state (politically speaking anyway)
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Re: All TOgether

Post by ThomasRED on 2011-05-08, 14:53

shadowukcs wrote:
-for starters, you'd lose a big part of the population (I'm not staying in eBE if it gets merged and I know several others who will as well)

Quite surprising statement from you shadowukcs !
I read that "you didn't want to be independent" (speaking of eBelgium) ?
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Re: All TOgether

Post by Oboacer on 2011-05-08, 15:04

humm very interesting debate taking place here. I don't know much about the past but according to the wiki, you were once part of eNL and that didn't go nearly as well as was hoped.

Also, the comment about Belgium being a failed state (politically) is a rather interesting subject to raise while part of eBelgium. However, the fact they now have the record for longest period without a "permanent government" has got to be a blemish. We could see "Flanders" and "Wallonia" as part of this game soon (sorry to all RL Belgiums if this offends you, is not officially the policy of eNZ).

All around an interesting debate. I personally would oppose this. We in eNZ have the same situation with eAustrlia and we openly oppose any merger. So I see where you are coming from shadow
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Re: All TOgether

Post by shadowukcs on 2011-05-08, 15:26

ThomasRED wrote:
shadowukcs wrote:
-for starters, you'd lose a big part of the population (I'm not staying in eBE if it gets merged and I know several others who will as well)

Quite surprising statement from you shadowukcs !
I read that "you didn't want to be independent" (speaking of eBelgium) ?
Neutral

huh? I've always been pro-independence. Which is also the reason why I didn't want to have anything to do with eBE when it merged with UNL. I've always been against any form of merge


Oboacer wrote:humm very interesting debate taking place here. I don't know much about the past but according to the wiki, you were once part of eNL and that didn't go nearly as well as was hoped.

Also, the comment about Belgium being a failed state (politically) is a rather interesting subject to raise while part of eBelgium. However, the fact they now have the record for longest period without a "permanent government" has got to be a blemish. We could see "Flanders" and "Wallonia" as part of this game soon (sorry to all RL Belgiums if this offends you, is not officially the policy of eNZ).

All around an interesting debate. I personally would oppose this. We in eNZ have the same situation with eAustrlia and we openly oppose any merger. So I see where you are coming from shadow

well we are a politically failed state. For a foreigner this may seem weird but it's true.

We've dug ourselves so deep into confederalism with so many rules, regulations and different types of governments and ministries, each with so many different responsibilities,... that we've entangled ourselves in rules and structures and made any form of proper government impossible.
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Re: All TOgether

Post by ThomasRED on 2011-05-08, 15:39

shadowukcs wrote:
ThomasRED wrote:
shadowukcs wrote:
-for starters, you'd lose a big part of the population (I'm not staying in eBE if it gets merged and I know several others who will as well)

Quite surprising statement from you shadowukcs !
I read that "you didn't want to be independent" (speaking of eBelgium) ?
Neutral

huh? I've always been pro-independence. Which is also the reason why I didn't want to have anything to do with eBE when it merged with UNL. I've always been against any form of merge

Huh ? Not always ! Suspect

As a RL belgian I want to say to those stink... arseh... fuc.... err not so respected southern neighbours, aka the french, that we don't want to be independent and that we liked it very much in the UK. - wroted more than one year ago by shadowukcs

Sad to lie to make his point more easily in a debate...
No

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Re: All TOgether

Post by shadowukcs on 2011-05-08, 16:00

ThomasRED wrote:
shadowukcs wrote:
ThomasRED wrote:
shadowukcs wrote:
-for starters, you'd lose a big part of the population (I'm not staying in eBE if it gets merged and I know several others who will as well)

Quite surprising statement from you shadowukcs !
I read that "you didn't want to be independent" (speaking of eBelgium) ?
Neutral

huh? I've always been pro-independence. Which is also the reason why I didn't want to have anything to do with eBE when it merged with UNL. I've always been against any form of merge

Huh ? Not always ! Suspect

As a RL belgian I want to say to those stink... arseh... fuc.... err not so respected southern neighbours, aka the french, that we don't want to be independent and that we liked it very much in the UK. - wroted more than one year ago by shadowukcs

Sad to lie to make his point more easily in a debate...
No

>quoting something that happened over 4 years ago IN FRICKING BETA.


*clap*clap*clap*




When eUK and eBE merged in beta, eBE had a active population (and I am not making this up or exageration) of 2 ppl (!!!!) 2 ppl in eBE (still have them in my msn). It had no national forum, no IRC and the war declaration of eBE vs eUK passed with 2-0. The Media page was empty for weeks at a time, there was 1 food company in all of eBE, no weapons company, no travel company,... not even national orgs like a NBB.

You can't compare that with the current situation.


but hey! good job. you caught me on a great lie.



you got me, I surrender. Put me in jail
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Re: All TOgether

Post by ThomasRED on 2011-05-08, 16:06

And ? You have not always been for the independence of eBelgium.

You could have said : "i have always been for the independance of Belgium and against any form of merge, EXCEPT during Beta time when the population of eBelgium was rather small... 2 citizens."

You decided to lie, and it's interesting... and sad, but it's only my personal opinion of course ! ;-)

You won't be put in jail, be safe ^^, but it learn us how far you can go sometimes to make your point in debates.

(i wont react more on this, let keep this topic for Jofroi and his All TOgether program ;-) it will be interesting to follow too)

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Re: All TOgether

Post by shadowukcs on 2011-05-08, 16:16

ThomasRED wrote:And ? You have not always been for the independence of eBelgium.

You could have said : "i have always been for the independance of Belgium and against any form of merge, EXCEPT during Beta time when the population of eBelgium was rather small... 2 citizens."

You decided to lie, and it's interesting... and sad, but it's only my personal opinion of course ! ;-)


can't you see for yourself how utterly retarded this is?


Didn't you as a kid never said to other kids that Santa does exist? I bet you did.... OMG!!! THAT MEANS YOU'RE A LIAR TOO!!!! YOU EVIL MAN!!!! SEND HIM TO GUANTANAMO BAY!

allow me to educate you on lies

http://www.shortnews.com/start.cfm?id=2738

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/columnists/john-walsh/so-how-many-lies-have-you-told-today-703886.html

We tell an average of 200 lies a day, just so we can cope with reality. If you think lies are sad then you think the essence of humanity is sad.


If you want to know more or lies and human emotions, try reading some Paul Ekman.



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Re: All TOgether

Post by Juan Cruz on 2011-05-08, 16:25

I think we should defend Belgium...No to the Dutch-Belgian Confederation
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Re: All TOgether

Post by Olv007 on 2011-05-08, 17:40

I used to be the Prime Minister of the former eUNL. I can only say that it was one of the best time I had on eRepublik. It was a perfect organization who was respected in the whole eworld. We had a very strong army and very good politicians. Everything goes very well until a very strong Romanian PTO group disturbed everything.

And don't understand me wrong, I love my country eBelgium. I just wanted to point out that the merge was not a bad thing like some people (who where not even in the eUNL... ) are trying to say.
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Re: All TOgether

Post by Xgentis Lempereur on 2011-05-08, 17:57

Why is there even a need for a merge in the first place? I personally don't like the idea of foreign rules.
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Re: All TOgether

Post by Critically on 2011-05-08, 18:25

Well, I am in favor for a merge because I believe that eNL and eBE would be much stronger !

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Re: All TOgether

Post by Oboacer on 2011-05-08, 19:11

Humm it would definitely change the dynamics on the continent. A new power or at least third-force would rise. Likely be heavily courted by the alliances who would want to join with that.

Interesting times for eBelgium.
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Re: All TOgether

Post by Jofroi on 2011-05-08, 20:54

A confederation wouldn't imply a domination of a country on another. Just a rise of the size of the communities and a strengthen of both.

I agree that RL Belgium is a fail. But that is because the IG and the RL merge don't have the same purpose.

RL, the federate state has been done to give the power to regions and thus it was in a separatist move.

Here the federation would be in an united move. The motivation is not the same at all and thus the results will probably not be the same.

Moreover, IRL belgium does not really need his neighbour. We have enough citizens and we don't have any war risk. The game is far more war sided and thus a small and weak country can hardly succeed.

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Re: All TOgether

Post by Chris Stanwick on 2011-05-08, 21:37

I would nominally support a full merger under the Belgian flag, but completely oppose the idea of a confederation between our nations.
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Re: All TOgether

Post by M.Leviathin on 2011-05-08, 21:39

Chris Stanwick wrote:I would nominally support a full merger under the Belgian flag, but completely oppose the idea of a confederation between our nations.

Also, no separate national identity. Everyone is Belgian. No exceptions.
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Re: All TOgether

Post by Chris Stanwick on 2011-05-08, 21:45

M.Leviathin wrote:
Chris Stanwick wrote:I would nominally support a full merger under the Belgian flag, but completely oppose the idea of a confederation between our nations.

Also, no separate national identity. Everyone is Belgian. No exceptions.

I agree. None of that United Belgium nonsense. If you need to add something to the name, we can be Greater Belgium. The Nederlanders might not like it at first, but they'll get used to it and become good Belgians.
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Re: All TOgether

Post by Olv007 on 2011-05-08, 22:43

Will you learn them to eat French fries and drink (good) beer? Wink
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Re: All TOgether

Post by Xgentis Lempereur on 2011-05-11, 19:01

It's impratical when one of the country is constantly being attacked by poland.
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Re: All TOgether

Post by Jofroi on 2011-05-11, 20:07

This project is not a short term project. I'm not willing for this NOW. We can wait some times before acting so.

This organisation has a very long term view Wink.

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Re: All TOgether

Post by Olv007 on 2011-05-11, 20:29

How much in eRep days?
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Re: All TOgether

Post by shadowukcs on 2011-05-11, 20:31

years, probably even decades
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Re: All TOgether

Post by Jofroi on 2011-05-11, 21:00

Months RL ^^. At least.

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Re: All TOgether

Post by Gibberish45 on 2011-05-11, 21:48

I would leave Belgium if we merged with eNL again. I might even do it over a confederation......


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Re: All TOgether

Post by Oboacer on 2011-05-11, 22:20

Humm looks like their are some divisions over the past in this nation. I didn't realize that prior "union/confederation" between these nations brought forward such resentment and debate.
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Re: All TOgether

Post by Olv007 on 2011-05-11, 23:09

Gibberish45 wrote:I would leave Belgium if we merged with eNL again. I might even do it over a confederation......

Gibberish45, I'm just curious: why?
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Re: All TOgether

Post by Mikhail Alexander on 2011-05-11, 23:32

Mike Wooldridge wrote:If eBelgium and eNl united , it should be under a Belgian flag this time

The Netherlands have had it too many times, time for Belgium to have a chance.
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Re: All TOgether

Post by Mikhail Alexander on 2011-05-11, 23:32

I might come back to Belgium if they unite with the Netherlands Smile
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Re: All TOgether

Post by Mike Wooldridge on 2011-05-12, 00:51

Mikhail Alexander wrote:
Mike Wooldridge wrote:If eBelgium and eNl united , it should be under a Belgian flag this time

The Netherlands have had it too many times, time for Belgium to have a chance.

Exactly!

And Oboacer it is quite a touchy subject , i myself have no memory of the union for i was born on Day 777 , however i did see the aftermath......
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Re: All TOgether

Post by Jofroi on 2011-05-12, 08:33

Oboacer wrote:Humm looks like their are some divisions over the past in this nation. I didn't realize that prior "union/confederation" between these nations brought forward such resentment and debate.

Actually, there are some troubles between old players (but nothing more than the ThomasRed-Shadowukcs problem, and that's for party reasons :p) between both communities, but for the belgian side, the guys that are opposed to a merge are people that weren't in eUNL during the merge. So the merge hasn't make much resentment from the belgian side and the only real problems we had during the merge, was caused by the way it was done (too fast).

So they've no idea about how the merge actually worked. And I think that most (at least the ones I know and I asked for it) eBelgians that were actives in eUNL are in favor of getting closer to NL again (which might not be true in eNL).

The truth is that, excepted for the current FA policy which is different due to Poland, eBelgian and eDutch communites are quite similar (not talking of law/constitution and such). So a merge of them could only be a profit imo.

I still consider the UNL period as (one of?) the best I spent on eRepublik.

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Re: All TOgether

Post by shadowukcs on 2011-05-12, 09:12

Gibberish45 wrote:I would leave Belgium if we merged with eNL again. I might even do it over a confederation......



ditto.


I'm deffo not staying in a artificial ecountry.
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Re: All TOgether

Post by Olv007 on 2011-05-12, 13:17

shadowukcs wrote:
Gibberish45 wrote:I would leave Belgium if we merged with eNL again. I might even do it over a confederation......



ditto.


I'm deffo not staying in a artificial ecountry.

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Re: All TOgether

Post by shadowukcs on 2011-05-12, 13:43

The new economic module has changed my mind about this completely.


We NEED to merge. Each different region bonus gives you a 20% increased production. Countries that own all regions get a +100% production (that double!!!!)

This makes a merge very necessary. Unfortunately a merge with the dutch would not solve much. They only got cattle (only ppl with a Q4 and Q5 company benefit from this) and and aluminium (only for Q3-Q5).


If we merge (and imo we should), I'd either with (in order of preference)

1) Poland
2) eUK
3) France
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Re: All TOgether

Post by Mike Wooldridge on 2011-05-12, 13:46

shadowukcs wrote:


We NEED to merge

Who am you , and what have you done with Shadow?!
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Re: All TOgether

Post by shadowukcs on 2011-05-12, 14:00

Mike Wooldridge wrote:
shadowukcs wrote:


We NEED to merge

Who am you , and what have you done with Shadow?!

blame it on the new economy module. It has totally destroyed countries imo.


With this new module, the need to merge is great. Smaller countries will cease to exist. How can we compete with someone who is capable of producing double of what we produce. Even with 100% import taxes they still reach the same price as we do.


EDIT: imo poland is currently the best choice to merge with (they provide us with a 100% increase) but we'd have a problem with the language barrier.

The Netherlands is also a possibility, but they are too much a risk.

France: also a language barrier

The best option at this point (if you don't want to have the language barrier) is eUK

From 100% economic point of view, we should merge with poland
From social-economical and military point of view, we should merge with eUK
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Re: All TOgether

Post by Fhaemita Malodorous on 2011-05-12, 14:07

shadowukcs wrote:
1) Poland
2) eUK
3) France

Personally I wouldn't want to merge with any of those countries. It maybe makes sense it a economical way, but not in a social way. If this would happen I (and I think a lot more people) would just move somewhere else. If I had to choose I would choose eUK because they also speak English, if we merged to France of Polish we're merging with a country that a good party of the country doesn't speak the language. I don't think a lot of people here speak Polish and there is a good part of the citizens here that also doesn't speak French. All in all I think a merger with those countries would be a disaster and would kill the eBelgium and our small but friendly community.

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Re: All TOgether

Post by shadowukcs on 2011-05-12, 14:14

Fhaemita Malodorous wrote:
shadowukcs wrote:
1) Poland
2) eUK
3) France

Personally I wouldn't want to merge with any of those countries. It maybe makes sense it a economical way, but not in a social way. If this would happen I (and I think a lot more people) would just move somewhere else. If I had to choose I would choose eUK because they also speak English, if we merged to France of Polish we're merging with a country that a good party of the country doesn't speak the language. I don't think a lot of people here speak Polish and there is a good part of the citizens here that also doesn't speak French. All in all I think a merger with those countries would be a disaster and would kill the eBelgium and our small but friendly community.

I agree that, taking all things in consideration, eUK would be the best choice.
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Re: All TOgether

Post by shadowukcs on 2011-05-12, 14:32

merging would mean the following to our production


countryfood raws bonus weapons raws bonus
no merge +40%+20%
merge with eUK +60% +60%
merge with eNL +60% +40%
merge with France* +60% +40%
merge with ePL +100% +80%

*amusing France gets Romanie back, the bonus FRM bonus would be 80%


conclusion: ePL is economically the best suited country, but the language barrier would pose a problem. eUK is the economically speaking the second best choice, but the best choice when it comes down to military, protection and social fields.
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Re: All TOgether

Post by Jofroi on 2011-05-12, 14:44

I'd say that +40% with eNL or +60% with eUK make a merge with NL far better than with UK.

Specially for freedom and community size.

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Re: All TOgether

Post by Fhaemita Malodorous on 2011-05-12, 14:46

Jofroi wrote:I'd say that +40% with eNL or +60% with eUK make a merge with NL far better than with UK.

Specially for freedom and community size.

+1

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Re: All TOgether

Post by shadowukcs on 2011-05-12, 15:36

Jofroi wrote:I'd say that +40% with eNL or +60% with eUK make a merge with NL far better than with UK.

Specially for freedom and community size.


20% is a big difference. If eUK manages to get a region swap with French Grain, it would even be 80% (which would be huuuuuuuge)


I've started a thread about this on the eUK forum: http://forums.erepublik.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=66841&p=976815#p976793


NOTE: as you can see, I did this as a individual citizen and there have been no contacts between either eBE or eUK government. It's just to see how they would react to this.


Another advantage of a merge between eUK and eBE is that we would finally get involved in big alliance politics again. I see ppl always screaming that eBE is boring, that we should join an alliance, that we should get involved in real wars,....

Finally we'll have a chance to do that. Finally we'd have a chance to get really involved, fight in big battle and big armies, become more known on the world stage.

Look at eNL: what do they have? Every week they get invaded by ePL. Their active population seems smaller than ours and with them we'd be just the same "neutral UNL" in stead of "neutral eBE". We'd still be neutral, we'd still be boring and there still wouldn't be anything happening.

I also expect ppl will say "but they're invading Ireland". True, but A) by the time we *could* merge, the war with ireland would be over. B) many citizens in eUK itself refuse to fight against Ireland. The war against eIRE has as much ppl who are pro as there are against.


In therms of political equality, some very simple ground rules can be made

-no eBE congress candidates in original eUK regions
-no eUK congress candidates in original eBE regions.

For managers the bonus would be, apart from the 80% (!!!) extra production, a lot of extra workforce. Those who are following the eUK economy know that there are a lot more workers there. In eBE it's nearly impossible to find a workers. Ditto with eNL. We would finally be able to play the game as GM again!

In therms of army, the eUK army consists of milita's anyway. We could easily keep our current army, companies and everything. Armywise, nothing would change.




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Re: All TOgether

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