My concerns For our possible CP

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My concerns For our possible CP

Post by jamster737 on 2011-11-05, 11:57

As a Belgium Citizen and the soon to be Former CP i would like to raise some concerns about Wards Manifesto. I would also like to give him some advice. (Before you all start on me these are genuine concerns that i have) and i would like them looked into.

1) the fact we dont have a a minister of Fun - You said it is vital for the country yet you dont have one ?
I know as well as most active players that the "We are all in it together to make it fun" does not work. We need a set person like Betafoxtrot is now who will focus on this and not make games based on eg. insulting players. My advice would be to get a minister of Fun

2) In your cabinet you do not say about translator's - This is a big worry for me because i dont want us to push out 2 clickers or indeed acive players who's main language may not be english. I would advice you (if you can not do it yourself) to find a french and a dutch translator.

3) Small and One sided Cabinet - Sorry but it has to be said. You are pushing active players out of the cabinet and adding less active players such as Aldous Zamiatin and even Splashdog (i have nothing against you being in the cabinet but i am worried about your activity to do such a vital job). Players like Critically , MarayamQ , Jonathan Clay dont even have a place.

4) You are trying to please everyone (as i did) belive me dont try that. Follow your heart and do what you think is best. However i would advice you to have old active players to advice you (and not just from the admins)

5) The flyers idea - I think not only would it be a waste of money for you but also it will not get many players and if it does it wont be diverse. I think a different approach would be best such as making a You tube video and posting it on different forums.

6) In your cabinet manifesto you wrote "I found these impressive friends ready to serve our country" The key word there is friends. When you are CP you cant have friends you have to listen and allow different groups of people into your gov who have different ideas. As CP you have to control this group but that way there are different ideas coming to the table and people dont feel left out.

7) In your first article you wrote "his cancels lots of hard work and tradition but, as center-wing anarchists, we will replace this with a cooperative vision." I dont think what you have shown so far is a cooperative view.

Finaly i would like to hear wards answer and what he will do to address my concerns.

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Re: My concerns For our possible CP

Post by Olv007 on 2011-11-05, 12:02

Concerning the translation part, I think dutch and french are not a problem for Ward Wink
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Re: My concerns For our possible CP

Post by Fhaemita Malodorous on 2011-11-05, 12:05

jamster737 wrote:
3) Small and One sided Cabinet - Sorry but it has to be said. You are pushing active players out of the cabinet and adding less active players such as Aldous Zamiatin and even Splashdog (i have nothing against you being in the cabinet but i am worried about your activity to do such a vital job). Players like Critically , MarayamQ , Jonathan Clay dont even have a place.

I would like to add about Aldous Zamiatin being a less active player. He is added to the defense council because if is the commander of BCA. When I was MoD I appointed him as 2nd commander and later regiment captain of BCA for a reason he was the most active fighter and the person who did the most kills most days. He might not be around on the forum as much but I am sure that will change if that's what needed.



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Re: My concerns For our possible CP

Post by jamster737 on 2011-11-05, 12:06

Olv007 wrote:Concerning the translation part, I think dutch and french are not a problem for Ward Wink
okay one concern down thanks for the answer ^^
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Re: My concerns For our possible CP

Post by NLSP on 2011-11-05, 12:33

Personally, what is the point of an big cabinet if the people are not really doing something?
Do we need title's just to have titles?
yes Beta did now a good attempt as MoFun, but that doesn't happen a lot...
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Re: My concerns For our possible CP

Post by jamster737 on 2011-11-05, 12:35

NLSP wrote:Personally, what is the point of an big cabinet if the people are not really doing something?
Do we need title's just to have titles?
yes Beta did now a good attempt as MoFun, but that doesn't happen a lot...
It is the fact it is so one sided and you cant have a cabinet with people who all share the same views.
Anyway guys let ward answer ^^ i only posted it public so people with the same concerns who are scared to write it can read the response
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Re: My concerns For our possible CP

Post by NLSP on 2011-11-05, 12:39

well I think a cabinet that all share the same views is the ideal cabinet for the CP Very Happy
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Re: My concerns For our possible CP

Post by jamster737 on 2011-11-05, 12:41

NLSP wrote:well I think a cabinet that all share the same views is the ideal cabinet for the CP Very Happy
not rearly the cabinets job is to work for the public not for there own views and if there is nobody to oppose there views it is a bias cabinet
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Re: My concerns For our possible CP

Post by Ward De Bever on 2011-11-05, 12:43

Sorry to not answer immediately to your concerns in-depth but I will do this this afternoon/evening Belgian time.
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Re: My concerns For our possible CP

Post by NLSP on 2011-11-05, 12:44

you have the opposition to oppose the views of the cabinet/government

In contrast of some people their beliefs, some players give critics on the gov, not cause they hate some people, but cause they think that the current views are not good.
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Re: My concerns For our possible CP

Post by jamster737 on 2011-11-05, 12:50

NLSP wrote:you have the opposition to oppose the views of the cabinet/government
you know as well as i do nobody listens to the oppostition they just say oh there trolling.
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Re: My concerns For our possible CP

Post by jamster737 on 2011-11-05, 12:50

Ward De Bever wrote:Sorry to not answer immediately to your concerns in-depth but I will do this this afternoon/evening Belgian time.
its okay Smile i thank you in advance for you answer
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Re: My concerns For our possible CP

Post by MaryamQ on 2011-11-05, 13:02

I would argue, along with jamster, that our most successful CPs have had diverse cabinets. The CP is the CP of all eBelgium, not just his particular circle.
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Re: My concerns For our possible CP

Post by NLSP on 2011-11-05, 13:33

jamster737 wrote:
NLSP wrote:you have the opposition to oppose the views of the cabinet/government
you know as well as i do nobody listens to the oppostition they just say oh there trolling.
Glad that you acknowledged that.
Next time, I would however prefer that you listen to them, you where elected as CP of all eBelgians, not your happy few...
I do know for a fact that some people do listen to the advise of their 'opponents' and use it if it is applicable
@MaryamQ: if that is possible, then it is indeed a positive side. However a CP can't have his own government working against him, so if that is/would be the case it is better to have a good oiled machine working that shares the same beliefs.
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Re: My concerns For our possible CP

Post by jamster737 on 2011-11-05, 13:43

This is not about my term - even though i did listen (you got a TW did you not ?)
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Re: My concerns For our possible CP

Post by MaryamQ on 2011-11-05, 13:57

NLSP, historically, many of our CPs (including me), have made a conscious effort to choose cabinet members from all parties. Including other points of view can help you prevent mistakes, plus you don't limit your pool of talent. I have served in the cabinets of CPs from other parties, as well, as have you. If you want unity, you have to be inclusive.
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Re: My concerns For our possible CP

Post by jamster737 on 2011-11-05, 14:01

MaryamQ wrote:NLSP, historically, many of our CPs (including me), have made a conscious effort to choose cabinet members from all parties. Including other points of view can help you prevent mistakes, plus you don't limit your pool of talent. I have served in the cabinets of CPs from other parties, as well, as have you. If you want unity, you have to be inclusive.
+1
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Re: My concerns For our possible CP

Post by Fhaemita Malodorous on 2011-11-05, 14:53

jamster737 wrote:
MaryamQ wrote:NLSP, historically, many of our CPs (including me), have made a conscious effort to choose cabinet members from all parties. Including other points of view can help you prevent mistakes, plus you don't limit your pool of talent. I have served in the cabinets of CPs from other parties, as well, as have you. If you want unity, you have to be inclusive.
+1

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Re: My concerns For our possible CP

Post by Critically on 2011-11-05, 14:55

Fhaemita Malodorous wrote:
jamster737 wrote:
MaryamQ wrote:NLSP, historically, many of our CPs (including me), have made a conscious effort to choose cabinet members from all parties. Including other points of view can help you prevent mistakes, plus you don't limit your pool of talent. I have served in the cabinets of CPs from other parties, as well, as have you. If you want unity, you have to be inclusive.
+1

+2

+3 !!

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Re: My concerns For our possible CP

Post by NLSP on 2011-11-05, 15:05

Well I do not question this, but then you need to work together with your CP. In the current climate, this isn't guaranteed. Therefore I do not think that a 'single view cabinet' (what his cabinet isn't) isn't a bad choice per se, and I think that it can be the less worst option.
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Re: My concerns For our possible CP

Post by jamster737 on 2011-11-05, 16:43

NLSP wrote:Well I do not question this, but then you need to work together with your CP. In the current climate, this isn't guaranteed. Therefore I do not think that a 'single view cabinet' (what his cabinet isn't) isn't a bad choice per se, and I think that it can be the less worst option.
NSLP that idea is stupid it would create a bigger divide in belgium and revive the Civil war ! If you push belgiums aside then they will bite. I think having an even split gov between all sides will mean all points of view are brought to the table.It is then up to the CP to decide.
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Re: My concerns For our possible CP

Post by shadowukcs on 2011-11-05, 16:45

Btw: TR doesn't have eBE citizenship, he can't be in his cabinet
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Re: My concerns For our possible CP

Post by shadowukcs on 2011-11-05, 17:01

http://ebelgium.forumotion.net/t3261-the-cabinet-rules-and-regulations-act


but then again, NLSP will probably start bitching that TR isn't a minister but a "advisor" which isn't the same (riiite?) even tho he's in his cabinet and we are talking about the cabinet rules and regulations act


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Re: My concerns For our possible CP

Post by jamster737 on 2011-11-05, 17:14

Ward will not address these concerns of mine till after the elections Rolling Eyes
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Re: My concerns For our possible CP

Post by NLSP on 2011-11-05, 18:15

--topic splitted cause of 2 different discussions --

shadowukcs wrote:http://www.erepbelgium.com/t3261-the-cabinet-rules-and-regulations-act


but then again, NLSP will probably start bitching that TR isn't a minister but a "advisor" which isn't the same (riiite?) even tho he's in his cabinet and we are talking about the cabinet rules and regulations act



he can also be an undersecretary without any problem
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Re: My concerns For our possible CP

Post by ThomasRED on 2011-11-05, 18:22

I will help you guys : i won't be in that Cabinet if there is a problem. Kylero also asked me to be in his Cabinet, and i replied the exact same things as i told to Ward : i don't want to be a minister in a government for now as i already spend a lot of times for the Belgian Armed Forces, but that i will be available to help or give advices when needed.

If Ward or Kylero want to ask me for advices, i don't need to be in a cabinet to answer them and it wasn't my goal to be in a cabinet, far from that...

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Re: My concerns For our possible CP

Post by jamster737 on 2011-11-05, 18:25

Problem solved Smile can we work on my concerns now
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Re: My concerns For our possible CP

Post by Ward De Bever on 2011-11-05, 18:27

Thanks Jamster737 for leading Belgium safely through turbulent times: our treasury is safe, our neutrality is stronger than ever and you did what you could to keep Belgians aligned behind common goals.

If the current trend is confirmed (as we know, any surprise can happen), let me thank you for your advice and address your concerns:

1. Fun is not and cannot be the responsibility of one person - not the CP and not his delegate. As seen in the 'Survivor Island' thread, one person vehemently opposing the notion of fun can effectively destroy the possibility of fun for all others, despite all other's best efforts. I decided to not try additional role-play on this and concentrate on:
- a practical RL project with the creation (will start a flyer design contest since i'm useless at graphics) and distribution (chance to meet IRL while doing something useful and fun) of flyers in or around public places.
- allowing for genuine fun while not steering it artificially.
- concentrate on this very game we are playing and try to develop the elements of fun that are intrinsic to it: training wars, respectful social exchange, innovative thinking, spearhead diplomacy, ...

2. As a quadrilingual RL Belgian I am able to easily express myself and understand articles in all four national languages: English, German, Dutch and French. I would gladly translate each and every piece of text i produce, if only it wasn't such a hassle, either for me or for the translators. The successful experiment we are having in Belgium is for English as a 'lingua franca' - motivating native speakers of any other language to learn and express themselves in this language can be very useful for the players in real life too. We should also be motivated by the desire to express ourselves in clear and correct English, and be tolerant towards others who don't master English that well yet. I'd rather give someone a dictionary or automated translation tool as a help to learn the language than give him/her a finished translation! Far from being a grammar nazi, using correct language, learning from and teaching it to each other, can be fun as well as useful.

3. To be honest, Finance is a 5-minute-per-day job if you know how to do it. Most important is the trust that we can have as a community in the holder of the password backup. I chose to appoint the MU leaders in my cabinet (and not the other way around: appoint ministers who will then politically influence MU leaders) so as to avoid as much as possible the conflict between role-play government fruitlessly trying to impose decisions on in-game entities. I trust the three current MU leaders that if they consider themselves unfit for the job, they will choose a worthy successor. But each MU has enough tradition and credibility to see Belgium's interest first. That's a question of trust, and I simply trust these three people that they'll see Belgium's interest before their own. If I don't include other people, that's my choice and I'm not forced to justify my choice. Everybody is free to apply and to convince me that they would be better suited for the responsibility.

4. I don't try to please everyone since I accept to make choices that can displease some... however I will not limit my sources of information to the 9 people mentioned in the cabinet and, again, everybody is free to provide advice or not.

5. Thanks for caring about my financial situation but it's not needed. I'm totally unfit to make a Youtube video and promote it - however if you want to start such a project and take the lead, go ahead and I will of course support you with what I can. Maybe RL flyers will not attract a great public, but every bit helps and having maybe a few RL Belgian residents extra as in-game citizens can attract others. Why would they be less diverse than others if you distribute flyers to the general public in a shopping street or near a transportation node?

6. As NLSP also stated, I see it as a bigger priority to have an efficient government than one which (fruitlessly) tries to please everyone. I wish that voters vote for a project instead of a person which they may like or not. The proposed government includes players from each of the five major parties, if I really wanted to create a divisive government I would choose only members from my own party. So, no, I will be a president for all Belgians and will resign my function of party president if elected.

7. I believe in cooperating on practical projects instead of trying to turn our community into a science-fiction "Borg"-type role-playing fake unity. I'm a team-player at the BAF, I'm a team-player in ULA (formerly) and Om (now), I'm a team-player in Congress. Everybody who knows me a bit better will agree that I have strong opinions sometimes (and may be somewhat stubborn) but that I listen to others if they have better ideas. I would much rather end up with consensus than divisive majority-minority situations in the face of difficult/complex decisions. That's how it works I think, and that's how people stay together despite being different.

I hope I addressed your concerns and that we can go Forward with Belgium!


Last edited by Ward De Bever on 2011-11-05, 18:30; edited 1 time in total
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Re: My concerns For our possible CP

Post by ThomasRED on 2011-11-05, 18:28

jamster737 wrote:Problem solved Smile can we work on my concerns now
Thanks, i'm a bit tired to be the center of the world for some guys here... Like Pieter said, it seems that we like "roundcircles" in eBE...

About Flyers, if i remember well, the NL did some stickers in the past...


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Re: My concerns For our possible CP

Post by shadowukcs on 2011-11-05, 18:30

jamster737 wrote:Problem solved Smile can we work on my concerns now
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Re: My concerns For our possible CP

Post by jamster737 on 2011-11-05, 18:33

Thank you for replying i am still worried about your cabinet but that is another matter Smile

As for this "Why would they be less diverse than others if you distribute flyers to the general public in a shopping street or near a transportation node?"
i mean from different countries. For example i am from the UK we have players from the USA and all over the world.
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Re: My concerns For our possible CP

Post by Ward De Bever on 2011-11-05, 19:42

jamster737 wrote:As for this "Why would they be less diverse than others if you distribute flyers to the general public in a shopping street or near a transportation node?"
i mean from different countries. For example i am from the UK we have players from the USA and all over the world.
Simply because I'm a RL Belgian and I can't imagine myself flying to Congo to go and distribute flyers there Wink Or someone can pick up on the idea, print the design of the flyers in his RL home country and distribute some there. But I can only propose, not promise this for someone else.
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Re: My concerns For our possible CP

Post by Olv007 on 2011-11-05, 19:57

When someone decide to start this game it will be in more than 90% of the cases in his RL country, not elsewhere. So for new players you can only promote eBe in Belgium.

Now if you want to promote eBe for existing players, that's something else Wink
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Re: My concerns For our possible CP

Post by Kylero on 2011-11-05, 20:05

Ooo, I wouldn't bring up that whole Congo thing...unless you think you're the second coming of Leopold II...
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Re: My concerns For our possible CP

Post by NLSP on 2011-11-05, 20:40

well, when we fly to Congo to distribute the flyers, we have to take care that we don't give it to these whose hands got chopped of, cause they didn't meet there rubber quota ^^


However, for a nominal fee, I am willing to hand out flyers in spain (these months), China (march-april), Germany (may, june)
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Re: My concerns For our possible CP

Post by jamster737 on 2011-11-05, 21:06

Ward De Bever wrote:
jamster737 wrote:As for this "Why would they be less diverse than others if you distribute flyers to the general public in a shopping street or near a transportation node?"
i mean from different countries. For example i am from the UK we have players from the USA and all over the world.
Simply because I'm a RL Belgian and I can't imagine myself flying to Congo to go and distribute flyers there Wink Or someone can pick up on the idea, print the design of the flyers in his RL home country and distribute some there. But I can only propose, not promise this for someone else.
i mean maybe make the flyer online Razz and post the link to other forums aswell as handing them out
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Re: My concerns For our possible CP

Post by Ward De Bever on 2011-11-05, 22:59

Nice idea - once the flyer design is there, more can be done with it indeed!
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Re: My concerns For our possible CP

Post by Mikhail Alexander on 2011-11-06, 13:12

You didn't mention me as a problem Sad
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Re: My concerns For our possible CP

Post by Monsieur Guillotine on 2011-11-07, 08:18

Mikhail Alexander wrote:You didn't mention me as a problem Sad
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Re: My concerns For our possible CP

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