TR in poland

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Re: TR in poland

Post by aVegan on 2011-11-05, 16:59

What doesn't TR have eBe citizenship? How can he lead our army then? Sorry but I don't understand. Who can enlighten me?
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Re: TR in poland

Post by Kylero on 2011-11-05, 17:02

shadowukcs wrote:Btw: TR doesn't have eBE citizenship, he can't be in his cabinet
^This will be the fight of the month...but the law is the law...

AVegan, he's on an army assignment in ePoland to own a company.
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Re: TR in poland

Post by Fhaemita Malodorous on 2011-11-05, 17:03

aVegan wrote:What doesn't TR have eBe citizenship? How can he lead our army then? Sorry but I don't understand. Who can enlighten me?

He has ePolish citizenship so the BAF companies produce more.
Poland has more bonuses then us and this BAF companies produce more weapons etc and can give the soldiers more supplies

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Re: TR in poland

Post by Kylero on 2011-11-05, 17:03

No, they'll argue that since he was sent by the army...then its different.
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Re: TR in poland

Post by aVegan on 2011-11-05, 17:04

So the state companies are his property?
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Re: TR in poland

Post by Fhaemita Malodorous on 2011-11-05, 17:05

Kylero wrote:No, they'll argue that since he was sent by the army...then its different.

The law is the law, no ifs, ands, or bu(t)ts

aVegan wrote:So the state companies are his property?

Technically the army owns them not the state

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Re: TR in poland

Post by shadowukcs on 2011-11-05, 17:06

aVegan wrote:So the state companies are his property?


basically yea. He gets gold to upgrade his companies from state to please the 1% of the population that's in BAF.
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Re: TR in poland

Post by aVegan on 2011-11-05, 17:10

shadowukcs wrote:
aVegan wrote:So the state companies are his property?


basically yea. He gets gold to upgrade his companies from state to please the 1% of the population that's in BAF.

WHATTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT? Shocked
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Re: TR in poland

Post by Fhaemita Malodorous on 2011-11-05, 17:10

aVegan wrote:
shadowukcs wrote:
aVegan wrote:So the state companies are his property?


basically yea. He gets gold to upgrade his companies from state to please the 1% of the population that's in BAF.

WHATTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT? Shocked

Welcome back to Belgium Wink

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Re: TR in poland

Post by Kylero on 2011-11-05, 17:22

Fhaemita Malodorous wrote:
Kylero wrote:No, they'll argue that since he was sent by the army...then its different.

The law is the law, no ifs, ands, or bu(t)ts

I agree. But there's gonna be some butts...BIG ONESSSSS!!!
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Re: TR in poland

Post by shadowukcs on 2011-11-05, 17:24

Fhaemita Malodorous wrote:
aVegan wrote:
shadowukcs wrote:
aVegan wrote:So the state companies are his property?


basically yea. He gets gold to upgrade his companies from state to please the 1% of the population that's in BAF.

WHATTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT? Shocked

Welcome back to Belgium Wink


yup, where TR/BAF and the admins hold all power



a little less than 85% our tax money goes to funding 1% of the population


Last edited by shadowukcs on 2011-11-05, 17:25; edited 1 time in total
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Re: TR in poland

Post by Critically on 2011-11-05, 17:24

TR is such a powerful guy in eBelgium

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Re: TR in poland

Post by jamster737 on 2011-11-05, 17:41

Kylero wrote:
Fhaemita Malodorous wrote:
Kylero wrote:No, they'll argue that since he was sent by the army...then its different.

The law is the law, no ifs, ands, or bu(t)ts

I agree. But there's gonna be some butts...BIG ONESSSSS!!!
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TR in poland

Post by ThomasRED on 2011-11-05, 18:03

My companies are my companies... State companies are state companies, and have been sold by the State. :-/

Second, a vote have passed with 10 yes 2 no to grant me 75g to upgrade 1 q4 company t6 q5 BUT Ward de Bever did a 75g donation to the State to pay for the upgrade. Check your facts...

Third, i'm polish to allow our soldiers to get more supplies : in Poland we can benefit of 100% bonuses : we produce 6.6 weaps per day instead of 3.9 in Belgium.

Four, i'm giving the free use of almost all my companies to the Army since more than 8 months : today it's 5 q5 raws companies and 3 q5 guns companies employing 35 soldiers, that i can't use to do business as i choosed to help eBE. I also pay the wages of all soldiers (min wage) since 3 months.

If you want me to come back in eBE and me to stop helping the army because i'm evil, just say so. I will be dissapointed, but it's not a big deal : it will save me a lot of times and money. If i do this, it's not for me, but thanks, such comments are always nice... ;-)

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Re: TR in poland

Post by NLSP on 2011-11-05, 18:18

The state has NO companies any more
The BAF has NO companies any more
TR has private companies that are used for free by the BAF. There has been a single time a donation been voted by congress to TR, what was not payed by the treasury, but by WDB.
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Re: TR in poland

Post by Aapocistan on 2011-11-05, 18:21

Why not hold a referendum on the forums?
To my knowledge there is no law regarding referenda, thus it would not be a binding referendum. However, disregarding the voice of the people will maybe make them think twice?

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Re: TR in poland

Post by aVegan on 2011-11-05, 18:22

So the state doesn't own any companies?
Does it fund any companies? If it does what companies does it fund for how much BEF and/or gold?
How many Q5 weapons are sold? How many Q5 weapons are redistributed? What is the profit/loss of these companies?
How is it insured that these companies stay around even when congress decides someone else should run them?

I don't need opinions but facts.
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Re: TR in poland

Post by jamster737 on 2011-11-05, 18:27

NLSP wrote:The state has NO companies any more
The BAF has NO companies any more
TR has private companies that are used for free by the BAF. There has been a single time a donation been voted by congress to TR, what was not payed by the treasury, but by WDB.
TR does recive gold to upgrade his companies tho
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Re: TR in poland

Post by ThomasRED on 2011-11-05, 18:33

jamster737 wrote:TR does recive gold to upgrade his companies tho
How much ? As i said, the Congress voted ONCE to give me 75g on a 100g upgrade for my Q4 food companies used by the Army. 10 congress members voted yes, 2 no, the vote passed but at the end Ward de Bever made a personal donation of 75 gold for the upgrade. :-/

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Re: TR in poland

Post by jamster737 on 2011-11-05, 18:36

imo 75 gold is a lot for us none gold buyers so the gov has a small share in the company Smile
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Re: TR in poland

Post by NLSP on 2011-11-05, 18:45

aVegan wrote:So the state doesn't own any companies?
Does it fund any companies? If it does what companies does it fund for how much BEF and/or gold?
How many Q5 weapons are sold? How many Q5 weapons are redistributed? What is the profit/loss of these companies?
How is it insured that these companies stay around even when congress decides someone else should run them?

I don't need opinions but facts.
State doesn't own any companies.
The State or BAF doesn't fund any companies
BAF doesn't sell weapons. All weapons made by the army are redistributed. Most of the immediatly, a small part is kept into reserve, to make sure that BAF runs smoothly, to make sure that if some soldiers don't work, there are still weapons for these that does...
Since congress doesn't own, the state doesn't own, the BAF doesn't own any companies, the moment that the company owner of the used companies decides to withdraw that privilege there is nothing that can be done against it.

jamster737 wrote:imo 75 gold is a lot for us none gold buyers so the gov has a small share in the company Smile
It was a donation and not an investment. Further that 75g assured bigger and better supplies for already longer then 8months.
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Re: TR in poland

Post by Nohjis on 2011-11-05, 18:52

jamster737 wrote:imo 75 gold is a lot for us none gold buyers so the gov has a small share in the company Smile

Maybe the gov should then also fund the BEF each day a soldier works in a TR owned company to pay for the loss of profit TR "suffers". I think that compared to a possible daily profit over 1k BEF per day this 75 Gold is peanuts.

Honestly, I get it, you guys would prefer TR had less of an impact but then do the necessary things to make it happen, complete a project that you've worked on.
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Re: TR in poland

Post by ThomasRED on 2011-11-05, 18:52

NLSP wrote:The State or BAF doesn't fund any companies
The BAF used to pay for the wages of the soldiers working in my companies, but since 3 months i have offered to pay the wages

NLSP wrote:BAF doesn't sell weapons. All weapons made by the army are redistributed. Most of the immediatly, a small part is kept into reserve, to make sure that BAF runs smoothly, to make sure that if some soldiers don't work, there are still weapons for these that does...
And also because it's not possible to donate 6.6 guns... :-3

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Re: TR in poland

Post by Cotarius on 2011-11-05, 19:05

Strange that some "new" guys are right in the attack before they know everything.

Maybe they aren't so new and know what was going on?
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Re: TR in poland

Post by aVegan on 2011-11-05, 19:23

So 75 gold was send from the state to TR? How much BEF was send the first 5 months?
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Re: TR in poland

Post by tecuvo on 2011-11-05, 19:32

Cotarius wrote:Strange that some "new" guys are right in the attack before they know everything.

Maybe they aren't so new and know what was going on?

they must have read all previous topics Question

which is off course very likely Shocked
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Re: TR in poland

Post by Olv007 on 2011-11-05, 20:08

aVegan wrote:So 75 gold was send from the state to TR? How much BEF was send the first 5 months?

No, 75 gold were donated from Ward De Bever.
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Re: TR in poland

Post by ThomasRED on 2011-11-05, 20:24

Nohjis wrote:Maybe the gov should then also fund the BEF each day a soldier works in a TR owned company to pay for the loss of profit TR "suffers". I think that compared to a possible daily profit over 1k BEF per day this 75 Gold is peanuts.

Honestly, I get it, you guys would prefer TR had less of an impact but then do the necessary things to make it happen, complete a project that you've worked on.

I don't know if you were sarcastic or not, but i do not ask or want anything for my personal benefit in exchange of the use of my Q5 companies... If i have offered to help the Army, it's because i'm able to do it and that i'm happy to see eBelgium becoming stronger, to get a better military, to see soldiers receiving better supplies, etc... :-/

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Re: TR in poland

Post by NLSP on 2011-11-05, 20:37

aVegan wrote:So 75 gold was send from the state to TR? How much BEF was send the first 5 months?
75 gold was send from WDB to the state and 75g was then send from the state to TR.
The Bef that was used to pay the wages in the past, was part of the armybudget of that time. the BAF got a budget and used it to pay the wages and for other methods to supply our soldiers.
The exact amount that was donated to the BAF, can be found on the forum in some topics (or ask WDB how long the finance sheet goes back), the fraction that was used for wages of that, is not determinable.

If you have any more questions, feel free to ask Smile
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Re: TR in poland

Post by aVegan on 2011-11-05, 20:43

Ok thanks that is already an answer that brings us a bit closer to the facts.

So we have established that the state gave 75 gold to TR.
If anyone has an idea where I can find those threads about the amount of BEF (and additional gold if any) was send to TR.

After seeing he indeed got gold and BEF we can't call these companies free of state involvement anymore. Clearly the state owns a part of these companies. Seeing this on paper would be a nice addition.
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Re: TR in poland

Post by NLSP on 2011-11-05, 20:55

TR didn't get any BEF, the BAF budget was not used to hand BEF's to TR, it was used to pay the wages of the BAF soldiers, working in TR's company, to produce army supplies.
There was no other gifts to TR, then that donation of 75g.
For information about the BAF budget, look into the eBelgian accountacy sheet or search congress forum for topics considering it. You can also look into the vote topics, what law for BAF funding was voted when.

Since it was a donation, you can't claim (partial) state ownership, more in the end, the state didn't pay for it, but WDB payed for it.
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Re: TR in poland

Post by Nohjis on 2011-11-05, 21:20

ThomasRED wrote:
I don't know if you were sarcastic or not, but i do not ask or want anything for my personal benefit in exchange of the use of my Q5 companies... If i have offered to help the Army, it's because i'm able to do it and that i'm happy to see eBelgium becoming stronger, to get a better military, to see soldiers receiving better supplies, etc... :-/

No sarcasm intended.

Quite honestly, I find it tiring that those who don't manage to put forward a better proposal keep comming back with the same subject over and over. If they want to convince eBelgium to change BAF funding and daily wages, they should propose a new project and work it out but as long as they don't, this is a pointless debate. It's quite obvious that you're not stealing from the state.

It's rather easy, we get about 100k BEF a month to work with, the majority of that budget is spent in the BAF. Those who do not wish to be in the BAF for various reasons are unhappy that they don't get to benefit of state finances. It would take me about an hour to write out a plan to put a part of state finances in an economic plan to increase state income through state-owned companies, put a larger part of the budget towards BTA and eventually even the other MUs.The fact that this hasn't been done after the discussions that I've read over the past month says more then enough. Those oposing you are lazy or know that this is the best alternative available.
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Re: TR in poland

Post by aVegan on 2011-11-05, 21:26

But I don't understand it. Is Nohjis saying that the BAF gets 100.000 BEF a month from the state?

NLSP as TR said the wages where paid by the state for the first 5 months. So my question is how much BEF/gold or any other currency was given to pay those wages. If I read correctly the 75 gold the state gave was for upgrading?
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Re: TR in poland

Post by Nohjis on 2011-11-05, 21:32

A Vegan, Belgian Army gets 85% of state budget, the approx 100k is total budget.

So of the remaining approx 85k, 20k goes to 2 MPP, 8k to BTA (spent by Jofroi to distribute daily food).

How the BAF distributes the remaining approx 57k monthly may be subject for your further research.
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Re: TR in poland

Post by aVegan on 2011-11-05, 21:39

But what do you mean that the BAF gets this? Is this money send to a person? Is any back-ups about these spendings available etc?

Who spends these 57000 BEF a month? Who decides for what the 57000 BEF are spend a month?
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Re: TR in poland

Post by goopypants on 2011-11-05, 21:42

aVegan wrote:But what do you mean that the BAF gets this? Is this money send to a person? Is any back-ups about these spendings available etc?

Who spends these 57000 BEF a month? Who decides for what the 57000 BEF are spend a month?

The BAF HC decides how the money is spent... usually in the form of some tanks and some BEF for food for each soldier.

The budget and spending of the BAF is subject to review by the MoD who (is supposed) to report to congress.

Tracking of the members of the BAF is/was done thru "Pulse", a fighting tracking add-on for eRep, but that may have been discontinued due to concerns about possible haxoring
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Re: TR in poland

Post by NLSP on 2011-11-05, 21:49

aVegan wrote:But I don't understand it. Is Nohjis saying that the BAF gets 100.000 BEF a month from the state?

NLSP as TR said the wages where paid by the state for the first 5 months. So my question is how much BEF/gold or any other currency was given to pay those wages. If I read correctly the 75 gold the state gave was for upgrading?
No, for the moment the BAF-budget is determined from the national income of eBe.
Nohijs estimated that on 100k
Baf budget= 85% of national income - BTA budget - 2mpp's

How it was before, can be checked by reading all the voted laws of the last 8 months (since that was the time period you where interested in)
You should find the exact numbers on the eBelgium accountancy sheet.

From that budget the wages where paid: that was the minimumwage possible. This where first BEF's, then when TR went to poland, PLN's where used.
In Poland the minimum wage is 1 PLN per soldier, in Belgium it has been (depending on the exact date you are speaking about) 5 BEF or 1 BEF I think.

So the answer: depending on what date you are talking about: either 1PLN/working soldier, 1BEF/working soldier or 5BEF/working soldier

The BAF gets it=> this is send to the military org
The budget is spend by the High Command according to their decisions, the way of spending has not been altered since it was communicated to congress. (this is: BEF is used for food supplies, pay partially the required transportation costs and emergency cases)
Every BAF-soldier or HC-member can view the way that the budget is spend, what involves the MoD, who's job it is to check the BAF and to inform the CP, congress, public if any discrepancies has been discovered.
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Re: TR in poland

Post by aVegan on 2011-11-05, 21:55

But I don't understand if these soldiers need to work for one of the state (TR) companies he gets free food. Does he also get free guns?
What with the food and guns that are left over? Isn't that food used for the donations?
How many people work for these min wages? If the BAF uses more than 50000 BEF
On what is the money used. It surely can't be wages.

So we still have state orgs? Just those orgs do not have companies anymore? Do you have a link to these orgs?
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Re: TR in poland

Post by NLSP on 2011-11-05, 22:03

we do have still all the state orgs, but no companies any more (we where forced to sell them by the admins)

So, soldiers work in one of TR's companies: they produce goods, these goods are army owned and not owned by TR.
These goods are distributed trough the soldiers by the supply officers (formerly with me in charge) the goods that are not distributed, are kept in army stock. (to give another time)
Our production is mainly focused on guns, in order to make sure that our soldiers also can fight enough, every soldier receive (if they fullfill the requirements= work and fight enough and in the battles ordered by the BAF if there are orders) foodsupplies, trough the BEF4FOOD program.
Like stated before, besides food supplies, the money is also used to (partially) reimburse travel costs

Al soldiers work in BAF companies for minimum wage, this is the only way that it is possible to give decent supplies.

Just to make clear, these are NOT state companies, these so called 'BAF companies' are the private property of TR
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Re: TR in poland

Post by aVegan on 2011-11-05, 22:12

So our army is in private hands? I do hope this won't happen in RL Shocked
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Re: TR in poland

Post by NLSP on 2011-11-05, 22:29

Our armies are not in private hands, however they use for free the facilities of one of our soldiers.

If congress is willing to do a one time investment to pay for the necessary companies, then we can without any problem change from companies. (However since that person would also need foreign citizenship to have optimal bonuseffects, that would mean that another eBelgian doesn't have ingame eBelgian citizenship)
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Re: TR in poland

Post by Ward De Bever on 2011-11-05, 22:58

In-game rules forbid state-owned companies. In other words: companies must necessarily be in private hands, there is no other choice.

If we wanted to implement a commune system, we will always finally have to decide to trust one citizen or another with that ownership.

As of yet, no enforceable system has been accepted by Congress to provide some kind of guarantee that this player won't run away with eventually state-paid companies. So it boils down to a question of trust.

For me, ThomasRed is our strongest citizen who also has proven extensively that he can be trusted. If needed, we could vote to declare another MU the state army MU, but then we will have to start over again with new Q5 companies and, indeed, another Belgian who would have to expatriate him/herself to China, Poland or Brazil for the bonuses.
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Re: TR in poland

Post by MaryamQ on 2011-11-06, 02:44

That's eRepublik for you...turn your back for a couple of months, and everything changes.
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Re: TR in poland

Post by shadowukcs on 2011-11-06, 11:40

aVegan wrote:So our army is in private hands? I do hope this won't happen in RL Shocked


basically yea. NLSP and TR won't admit it but it is. Our entire army depends on the "good grace" of TR.

I'll repeat what I said earlier: 85% of our what all pay to the state goes to 1% of the population.

Also, if you still promote Pulse or have installed you're a moron. It's been known for months that it contains key loggers.
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Re: TR in poland

Post by Ward De Bever on 2011-11-06, 12:29

Let's repeat the correct numbers: 15% of our budget is reserved by default. The next 8000 BEF goes to the BTA. The next 20000 BEF goes to 2 mpp's. The rest (now about 50-60%) goes to the BAF, which is open to ALL active soldiers with 1000+ strength.

In-game it's IMPOSSIBLE to have pure state-owned companies.

'TR in Poland' is a difference in supplies of 2 Q5 weapons per soldier per day.
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Re: TR in poland

Post by aVegan on 2011-11-06, 12:41

But isn't that first 8000 BEF also already around 10% so it isn't 50-60% but 60-70%

How many active citizens are in the BAF?
How many active citizens does eBe have?

What do active soldiers in the BAF get? If I read it correctly they only get food.
So I wonder what happens with all the weapons being made (that is 14 per worker in Poland no?)?

Who gets food? Again if I read it correctly everyone who fights for eBe gets food but why have I never gotten any food?
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Re: TR in poland

Post by shadowukcs on 2011-11-06, 14:10

no, not everyone who fights for eBE gets food. Only those who join BAF so NLSP and TR can dickwave with how many members they have.


As for the numbers
citizens in eBelgium: http://www.erepublik.com/en/country/society/Belgium
Members in BAF: http://www.erepublik.com/en/main/group-list/members/252/463#1_463
(excluding the ones that don't have a BAF avatar and less than 60 fights per day)
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Re: TR in poland

Post by aVegan on 2011-11-06, 14:16

And who gets weapons?
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Re: TR in poland

Post by Pieter557 on 2011-11-06, 14:25



And yeah, BAF depends on the good grace of TR. If it wasn't TR, it would have been someone else. There aren't so many ways to do this and the current one is one of the most effictive ones.

If you want laws or budgets changed, take it to congress and get it over with... Whining about them doesn't work Smile
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Re: TR in poland

Post by aVegan on 2011-11-06, 14:31

Just want to make clear I am not whining about anything.
I have been out of this game for a long time and now I am just trying to catch up.

It is the right of every citizen to know how his taxmoney is spend. As I know the game from before I only do this a bit more directly.
No need for anyone to feel offended.

I am searching for facts. No need for congress to get involved. These details should be publicly available. But it seems here it is almost impossible to get some facts.

Like what happens with all the guns? Where does all those resources go to? How many citizens benefit from it? etc...
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Re: TR in poland

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