Neutrality, the does and don'ts

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Neutrality, the does and don'ts

Post by van Spijck on 2012-04-09, 23:50

Dear Southern sistern and brethren;

Nutrality isn't just a logo one can use to it's liking. It really needs commitment.
When you want the eworld to accept you as a really Neutral country, you can't go and fight for alliances.
For then you would take a side, wich is not being Neutral.
imo It's not being Neutral when some of your citizens are member of a foreign mu. Maybe in that of another Neutral country? Being Neutral means you have to treath all countries alike, so you can't have any MPP's with countries that are a part of any alliance, nor are affiliated members of such
Neutrality isn't something the admins had in mind when creating this game Stronger even the game leaves not much space for being neutral.
But I feel I have to warn you; while fighting in a war between alliances, the alliance you'll be fighting will consider you as alligned with the oposite alliance.
When eBelgium really want to be affiliated with Neutrality, it must act like a real Neutral country.
This ofcourse is my opinion, but it is shared by many more in this eworld.

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Re: Neutrality, the does and don'ts

Post by goopypants on 2012-04-10, 00:11

call it what it is,

hypocrisy
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Re: Neutrality, the does and don'ts

Post by van Spijck on 2012-04-10, 00:26

When eBe really wants to be neutral, it's about time to act on that. Neutrality comes with the responsebility of being neutral.
But why not let the people decide? Maybe it's better to become an independant nation? Have yourselve's a referendum.
But I'm just writing this out of concern. Not to tell you what to do ofc.

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Re: Neutrality, the does and don'ts

Post by Fhaemita Malodorous on 2012-04-10, 00:33

van Spijck wrote:Nutrality isn't just a logo one can use to it's liking. It really needs commitment.
When you want the eworld to accept you as a really Neutral country, you can't go and fight for alliances.
For then you would take a side, wich is not being Neutral.

You are actually not complete correct there are actually two sorts of neutrality 1. Active Neutrality and 2. Passive Neutrality. Arjay Phoenician actually wrote an interesting article on this matter. What you are describing is Passive neutrality, you stick your head in the sand and hope nobody will notice you really. This really doesn't work in erepublik seeing this is a war game the citizens will get bored. Active Neutrality like Belgium (and most neutral countries) are doing is signing MPP with both sides and trying to keep both sides happy at the same time. This is mostly done my smaller countries not being able to choose side being of their surrounding country or whatever other reason.

van Spijck wrote:imo It's not being Neutral when some of your citizens are member of a foreign mu. Maybe in that of another Neutral country? Being Neutral means you have to treath all countries alike, so you can't have any MPP's with countries that are a part of any alliance, nor are affiliated members of such
Neutrality isn't something the admins had in mind when creating this game Stronger even the game leaves not much space for being neutral.

So a country isn't neutral when some of their citizens are in a foreign MU? The state cannot be responsible for all their citizens, their actions and the MU they are in. The state cannot control their citizens, a small group of citizens can have a preference for a particular side but that doesn't mean the country agrees with it and that it is the stance of the country or the government. Claiming a country has a stance based on a minority of the citizens is shortsighted.

van Spijck wrote:But I feel I have to warn you; while fighting in a war between alliances, the alliance you'll be fighting will consider you as alligned with the oposite alliance.When eBelgium really want to be affiliated with Neutrality, it must act like a real Neutral country. This ofcourse is my opinion, but it is shared by many more in this eworld.

Belgium is fighting for *both* sides, we do not pick sides. Most countries and alliances are aware of this. Like I said a country can be neutral and fight for both side. This is a war game and true neutrality doesn't work in Erepublik.

As for coming in all blazing with treats, as somebody who was against the last war I am very disappointing that you are taking this stance. With you experience in foreign affairs I had expected more from you the this short sighted vision on foreign politics.

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Re: Neutrality, the does and don'ts

Post by van Spijck on 2012-04-10, 00:38

So you agree that eBelgium is not really neutral as the dictionary's defenition.
Then why not cal yourselves Independant?

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Re: Neutrality, the does and don'ts

Post by MaryamQ on 2012-04-10, 00:49

Fhaemita, I don't really see this as "blazing with threats". This is not the first time we have heard these observations about neutrality. With your connections in the eUS, I am very sure you are aware of that. I am not saying we should go one way or another, but really do need to look at the realities in the present eWorld and figure out what is the best option for us.
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Re: Neutrality, the does and don'ts

Post by theophyledepatryarkes on 2012-04-10, 01:04

Fhaemita Malodorous wrote:
van Spijck wrote:Nutrality isn't just a logo one can use to it's liking. It really needs commitment.
When you want the eworld to accept you as a really Neutral country, you can't go and fight for alliances.
For then you would take a side, wich is not being Neutral.

You are actually not complete correct there are actually two sorts of neutrality 1. Active Neutrality and 2. Passive Neutrality. Arjay Phoenician actually wrote an interesting article on this matter. What you are describing is Passive neutrality, you stick your head in the sand and hope nobody will notice you really. This really doesn't work in erepublik seeing this is a war game the citizens will get bored. Active Neutrality like Belgium (and most neutral countries) are doing is signing MPP with both sides and trying to keep both sides happy at the same time. This is mostly done my smaller countries not being able to choose side being of their surrounding country or whatever other reason.
Very good article!
Should be recommended article for all newbies in eBelgium!
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Re: Neutrality, the does and don'ts

Post by theophyledepatryarkes on 2012-04-10, 01:06

MaryamQ wrote:Fhaemita, I don't really see this as "blazing with threats". This is not the first time we have heard these observations about neutrality. With your connections in the eUS, I am very sure you are aware of that. I am not saying we should go one way or another, but really do need to look at the realities in the present eWorld and figure out what is the best option for us.
What are our other options? Question
Apart from joining one of those alliances? Bang2
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Re: Neutrality, the does and don'ts

Post by MaryamQ on 2012-04-10, 02:21

I was a fan of Arjay Phoenician's, but he has been eDead for a long time, and that article is very old. We can't look at the eWorld through the same lens as we used back in V1. In fact, what he terms passive neutrality and active neutrality do not differ very much from what others are now calling neutrality and independence. Those, in fact, are our options, as I see it - neutrality/passive neutrality, independence/active neutrality, and either openly supporting or actually joining one or another alliance. All have their advantages and drawbacks, but let's not pretend that we can continue what we have been doing and have it keep working out the same way for us. Even failing to choose is a choice.
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Re: Neutrality, the does and don'ts

Post by Konrad Neumann on 2012-04-10, 02:49

I agree with vS. It is not what you think is important but that of the other countries and alliances. In the end, that is what it counts. If they see you are a problem, they will strike. If they feel you are lying about your neutrality, they are pissed and angry with eBE etc, they will hold it against them. Like I said before, this is not a math problem. Fighting a battle for TEDEN and one batter for ONE, 1-1 does not equal to neutrality. It only equates to two frustrated alliance.
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Re: Neutrality, the does and don'ts

Post by Cotarius on 2012-04-10, 07:22

I think what is said that if a country is active neutral people don't like if it works but more they are looking for excuses to do something in the futher so they can say, I told you.

If these people made the same effort to show that we are neutral in the rest of eworld it would be easier but instead they are doing the opposite.
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Re: Neutrality, the does and don'ts

Post by Boklevski on 2012-04-10, 10:52

["RAGE MODE AGAINST ADMINS" ON]
van Spijck wrote:
Neutrality isn't something the admins had in mind when creating this game
We don't have to play exactly what the admins had in mind, right? In fact, I strongly believe the admins don't have much in mind, and whatever they have in mind changes daily. Seen so much features come and go, that I don't believe in any long term vision of their side anymore.
[EXIT "RAGE MODE"]

I like Arjay's concept. Might be written ages ago, but IRL many theories of the ancient Greek still stand as well, right? Don't see why it has changed. Passive and active neutrality still exist. Only the implications could have slightly altered.

Not signing with alliances would mean no wars, which means no development of citizens. That's not an option, so we must sign with alliances due to game mechanics. We're just trying to find a middle way.

So far, it only lead to a *certain* country randomly invading us last month for no apparent reason, so we're not doing that bad, right?
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Re: Neutrality, the does and don'ts

Post by van Spijck on 2012-04-10, 16:56

@Cotarius; I was trying to convince the rest of the eworld of your neutrality, but I met a lot of unbelieve because of the reasons I stated in this topic. That's also the reason for me writing this topic on your forum. To explain to you guys why it is so hard for the rest of the eworld to be convinced of your neutrality. TEDEN sees you fighting for ONE, ONE sees you fighting for TEDEN, so both will consider you an enemy, a non trustable nation at the least, I'm sorry to say.

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Re: Neutrality, the does and don'ts

Post by boer jan on 2012-04-10, 18:42

van Spijck wrote:TEDEN sees you fighting for ONE, ONE sees you fighting for TEDEN, so both will consider you an enemy, a non trustable nation at the least, I'm sorry to say.

So they see us only fighting on the opposite side, never on their side?
Even if all the neutral went together and were only defending each other, they would be considered as enemy because TEDEN or ONE would try to conquer anyway, so who is non trustable in this case?
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Re: Neutrality, the does and don'ts

Post by van Spijck on 2012-04-11, 01:49

boer jan zei;
So they see us only fighting on the opposite side, never on their side?
Even if all the neutral went together and were only defending each other, they would be considered as enemy because TEDEN or ONE would try to conquer anywayWhen al neutral goes together, it's called an alliance.

When all the neutral goes together, it's called a alliance.
Good point, try to make a neutral alliance.

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Re: Neutrality, the does and don'ts

Post by NLSP on 2012-04-11, 04:37

van Spijck wrote:
When eBelgium really want to be affiliated with Neutrality, it must act like a real Neutral country.

My idea of a neutral country is a country that will take sides with everyone in order to rape, murder, slaughter, torture every person that stood against him.
My definition is: you are only neutral if you embrace and fight with every alliance and put a knife in the back of everyone who once tried to fight against the sovereignty of our beloved country.

I think we would be really neutral if we decapitate NL or help Poland, the legitimate owner of West-NL, to recapture that region and fight every terrorist who wants to destabilize that and our regions.
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Re: Neutrality, the does and don'ts

Post by Fhaemita Malodorous on 2012-04-11, 07:32

van Spijck wrote:When all the neutral goes together, it's called a alliance.
Good point, try to make a neutral alliance.

Neutral (defensive) alliances doesn't work Smile
Been tried so many time in the past, Belgium has even been a member of one or two

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Re: Neutrality, the does and don'ts

Post by Cotarius on 2012-04-11, 08:24

van Spijck wrote:@Cotarius; I was trying to convince the rest of the eworld of your neutrality, but I met a lot of unbelieve because of the reasons I stated in this topic. That's also the reason for me writing this topic on your forum. To explain to you guys why it is so hard for the rest of the eworld to be convinced of your neutrality. TEDEN sees you fighting for ONE, ONE sees you fighting for TEDEN, so both will consider you an enemy, a non trustable nation at the least, I'm sorry to say.

Don't be sorry and I don't mean it personal but what already said you cant be passive neutral because this game ask for fighting. But I think the image problemm is more because what people have said about us then fighting for both sides.
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Re: Neutrality, the does and don'ts

Post by Boklevski on 2012-04-11, 09:47

Fhaemita Malodorous wrote:
Neutral (defensive) alliances doesn't work Smile
Agreed. They either start leaning towards a side (what was that little alliance called that started neutral and ended up fighting Phoenix on EDEN's side?), or they fall apart after they fail to protect one of their members who was attacked anyway by the big alliances (because they don't give sh*t about them being in a 'neutral alliance')
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Re: Neutrality, the does and don'ts

Post by theophyledepatryarkes on 2012-04-11, 20:04

Cotarius wrote:
van Spijck wrote:@Cotarius; I was trying to convince the rest of the eworld of your neutrality, but I met a lot of unbelieve because of the reasons I stated in this topic. That's also the reason for me writing this topic on your forum. To explain to you guys why it is so hard for the rest of the eworld to be convinced of your neutrality. TEDEN sees you fighting for ONE, ONE sees you fighting for TEDEN, so both will consider you an enemy, a non trustable nation at the least, I'm sorry to say.

Don't be sorry and I don't mean it personal but what already said you cant be passive neutral because this game ask for fighting. But I think the image problemm is more because what people have said about us then fighting for both sides.

So basically, if the problem is not so much the fighting as our image in the eWorld, should the solution not be to act on our image internationally?
This is just an idea but what if we work towards these goals:
1. A capable army and economy, however small, capable of aiding a side with positive effect.
(Meaning we can be useful as friends Cool but also a hard fight if attacked Twisted Evil ).
2. Show examples of battle where we fought alongside a country to the authorities of that country (especially when it's a "resistance war" to re-capture original land). That way, the countries will see how we help more than how we hurt... cheers After all, we are never the attacker or even the main force in those battles.
3. It would help if we can be seen as a positive to all in some non-military use as well (economic pig , diplomacy Cool , fun organizers jocolor , Arms dealer Bang1 , etc...)
4. Making personal friends in high places everywhere... I guess (but I may be wrong) that people think twice before attacking a friend... Very Happy
X. Another option is to become so important for all that if somebody captures us, all the others will come to liberate us... (But unless we get gold coffers filled with everybody's money, I don't see that happening Rolling Eyes ) Anyway, it could also make us the worlds battleground!
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Re: Neutrality, the does and don'ts

Post by van Spijck on 2012-04-11, 21:02

theophyledepatryarkes, now there's a start of a solution! It does mean some extra work, but this could work. Only fight in RW's, and gather the proof, to convince other govs and heads of alliances of your good intentions.
theophyledepatryarkes, I salute you! o7

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Re: Neutrality, the does and don'ts

Post by Elynea on 2012-04-11, 21:45

well, what's neutral for me ? i don't understand all answers.

1) I always fight in an original region.
2) I fight for our mpp's if that not a personal attack, verification of the region.
3) i prefer fight in RW, then i'm sure.

For me to be neutral, isn't stay in our corner. We need to up our rank and our xp too. Just don't participate to an important battle (Big Alliance/Big Alliance).

I love help little countries because they are always under attack. It's the game.

I have a lot of friends from several alliances, they know my defensive game, i don't have problem with that, sometimes i fought in their side, sometimes in the other side.

Sometimes it's funny, i have shout from a friend : "fight there" in a side, and another one who ask "fight there" in the same battle but in the other side.

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Re: Neutrality, the does and don'ts

Post by theophyledepatryarkes on 2012-04-11, 22:21

van Spijck wrote:theophyledepatryarkes, now there's a start of a solution! It does mean some extra work, but this could work. Only fight in RW's, and gather the proof, to convince other govs and heads of alliances of your good intentions.
theophyledepatryarkes, I salute you! o7
Thanks! Embarassed

Elynea wrote:well, what's neutral for me ? i don't understand all answers.

1) I always fight in an original region.
2) I fight for our mpp's if that not a personal attack, verification of the region.
3) i prefer fight in RW, then i'm sure.

For me to be neutral, isn't stay in our corner. We need to up our rank and our xp too. Just don't participate to an important battle (Big Alliance/Big Alliance).

I love help little countries because they are always under attack. It's the game.

I have a lot of friends from several alliances, they know my defensive game, i don't have problem with that, sometimes i fought in their side, sometimes in the other side.

Sometimes it's funny, i have shout from a friend : "fight there" in a side, and another one who ask "fight there" in the same battle but in the other side.

Interesting...
I think we see here that it's not only important that our government has good relations to other governments and important people but that we also, on our personal level, tie relationships with people in many places!

Elynea, what's your advice on making friends in all places? Cool
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Re: Neutrality, the does and don'ts

Post by Elynea on 2012-04-11, 22:30

Well, i was in an alliance before i came back in my original country ebelgium. In the game, you are just a person who is playing a role. You must respect the country where you are.

I can understand your opinion, that's why you can see in my profil : I always defend original region.

I don't make politic, and i'm free of responsabilities in the government.

I sew in the past : elynea you use your position to make that or this. Wrong, i never ask to someone to fight here or there. Persons in the BTA can say you that.

As i said before, maybe the army will represent the nation, but i'm just a free gamer, independant of orders.

I play this game for the community, i love to talk with persons from every country, i hate the racism. They are laughting when i try to talk their langage. My english is an example. I prefer write in french sure, more easy for me.

But if a friend ask me a service, i always take care about him, the only condition (defense no attack). Smile with your heart, friends are near.

@ you can see on the forum, a lot of persons are working on this way. It's not easy, but it's a battle every month to take care about our special status (the choice of mpp, .... )
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Re: Neutrality, the does and don'ts

Post by Cotarius on 2012-04-11, 22:47

@Elynea I glad to see you back on this forum because I like your ideas and your opinion, also yoi always listen to people. I missed you here hope you stay active.

For me your english is great and glad you do because my french is terrible (much worse as my english) so keep on the good work. you always did.
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Re: Neutrality, the does and don'ts

Post by BrunoCND on 2012-04-11, 23:06

Elynea in this game you're my idol.
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Re: Neutrality, the does and don'ts

Post by Elynea on 2012-04-11, 23:09

Cotarius wrote:@Elynea I glad to see you back on this forum because I like your ideas and your opinion, also yoi always listen to people. I missed you here hope you stay active.

For me your english is great and glad you do because my french is terrible (much worse as my english) so keep on the good work. you always did.

thanks Cotarius, i just pass to read. I'm happy to be in my original country, because i see several true persons.
Nice and honest. Everyone is playing his game, but with respect we can do a lot of good things.

Economy and politic are not for me

BrunoCND wrote:Elynea in this game you're my idol.

You can't you are the president Suspect
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Re: Neutrality, the does and don'ts

Post by BrunoCND on 2012-04-11, 23:46

Yes i can Elynea because i'm not the first President Very Happy
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Re: Neutrality, the does and don'ts

Post by Elynea on 2012-04-12, 00:19

BrunoCND wrote:Yes i can Elynea because i'm not the first President Very Happy

hehe, i was the second when ebelgium came back on the map. We had a TO in this time Wink

-----------------------------------------------

I will make soon an article about our "neutrality" because we always see questions about that, but nobody is talking about to be "in an alliance". Sure several players are more for a country, other for another (they take care about their friends), i can't blame them. We have several players who like trolling, who make politic, who love put troubles... But who is perfect in this eworld? Nobody. Smile

What's the goal of an alliance ? Is it easy to respect their priority ? Why are we in obligation to go in one alliance?

It's not easy to keep our status, and it's maybe time for several players who are slave of one alliance to see an other important thing : to keep our liberty.

It's not easy to be "neutral" why? Because we are always checking where we can fight to respect each side. I profit here to say to Goopypants : i was proud to see your article when you were president since the war. It was very difficult and you needed a lot of humility. Maybe several players are thinking we are strange and it's impossible to stay neutral. But for me, it's more difficult to keep good relations with a lot of countries like to follow orders from one alliance. A big battle from the heart.

You can see one thing, we are so different, but in this country, we are working for the same thing, no to be a supra power, but deserve to exist.


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Re: Neutrality, the does and don'ts

Post by Karakoran on 2012-04-12, 02:09

In the modern world of eRepublik, every fight is a do-or-die fight. Even fights that take place continents away can endanger one's nation. Thus, in this world, the strongest alliance is the most efficient alliance. No guns can be wasted while true threats like the enemy still exist.

This is why EDEN never came to the aid of the Dutch except in small numbers to show they weren't abandoning them. Because EDEN never wanted that war. It was a war against a small, neutral nation which could neither threaten nor pretended to threaten EDEN's interests. No one wanted that war except Auggy and the select few he surrounds himself with. With minor aid from foreign powers (in this case ONE) and a bit of a stretched budget, we threw them out and have managed to recreate the status quo ante bellum.

But say instead, we turned to ONE. After all, at least ONE doesn't invade us every 5 minutes. Well then, who's to say that TEDEN wouldn't see it as a just war? The Dutch were struggling against the ONE sympathizers of eBelgium! They needed aid in crushing such evil and thus TEDEN would help in force.

The same effect is replicated no matter what super alliance ever has or ever will attack us.

Being allied with one power merely makes us a just target for the other. Thus, when the invasion inevitably comes they will have the proper backing from their alliance and actually occupy us.

And don't give me a list of neutral nations who have been destroyed "because of their neutrality". Mexico isn't neutral, look where it got them. Venezuala isn't neutral. Saudi Arabia? Egypt? Pakistan? UAE? Montenegro?

Nations are occupied, not because they are allied or not, but rather because they are weak physically. Cyprus knows that Saudi Arabia's military is so s*** they could probably send one tank in and take over the nation. Turkey knows that the UAE can only be referred to as a nation loosely. Thus they crushed it.

Our nation's survival will not be decided based on whether we are neutral or not. Rather, our nation's survival will depend on the resilience of its people. It will hing upon whether or not our nation has the endurance to ride out the storm of war.
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Re: Neutrality, the does and don'ts

Post by Elynea on 2012-04-12, 08:14

The neutrality is not a problem : the strategy is more in debates.

Where is the country ? which countries are near this neutral nation?

If we are near countries from Terra, you always see : "they are going pro-ONE".

Several countries don't care about our neutrality, they just see our situation on the map. (maybe if they are in one alliance, they are able to attack a region from the other side).

Second point : our fighters. Neutrality is not a problem if we have little STR (wiped faster? ), but if we have fighters who can make big dammages, it's now a problem.

In fact : i think it's better to have good relationship like bad one, we are just asking to make our game and to stay in the freedom.

Why the last war was so discuting, just because the country who attacked us was pushing us in a side. We didn't ask that.

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Re: Neutrality, the does and don'ts

Post by M.Leviathin on 2012-04-12, 09:56

I look forward to us staying neutral and then complaining how boring it is later on. Just as we have been for the entire two years this particular Belgium has been in existence.
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Re: Neutrality, the does and don'ts

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