Minimum Wage

by **Gibberish45** 2011-05-19, 17:11

What happened to this discussion? There is no incentive to hire skill 0 workers @ 5 BEF (excluding philanthropist mentors) Let's drop the minimum all the way, if workers are in demand it will go back up.

Besides, an active newb who plans on sticking around will quickly discover the programs designed to assist newbs without money. They will only be skill 0 for 2 days (?) anyway. Paying them 5 BEF takes money away from the Belgian economy and gives it to 1 day citizens to take to their eGraves.

by **Elynea** 2011-05-19, 19:54

I agree, but the economy is not good in this moment, if GM have profits, why not look about that.

by **Gibberish45** 2011-05-19, 20:04

Elynea wrote:I agree, but the economy is not good in this moment, if GM have profits, why not look about that.

If I understand correctly isn't this more incentive to lower the minimum? Why let stillborns suck money away from GMs? Health is easy to manage and with prices so low 5 BEF is much more than necessary.

There are government programs for food and even weapons through joining the military. What else do they need to buy?

I have made my case I would be interested to see someone defend the current minimum wage in case I'm missing something here. Otherwise will someone from congress propose the reduction for this concerned constituent?

tl;dr version:

Newbs : don't need money
don't know how to use money
shouldn't be given more than the bare minimum

by **Elynea** 2011-05-19, 20:09

If the possibility is to change the minimum why not do that. It's hard to explain that in english for me.

I'm not in economy, i can't make a real debate about that.
I help new players yes, but it's not the same for a new who have no help.

by **Kylero** 2011-05-19, 20:35

I agree with your logic Gib, but lowering the min. wage won't help this. There's such high competition for workers because of the BAF communes, that even if its lowered to 1 BEF, private companies will still offer high wages for the noobs just so they can get them.

by **jamster737** 2011-05-19, 20:51

Kylero wrote:I agree with your logic Gib, but lowering the min. wage won't help this. There's such high competition for workers because of the BAF communes, that even if its lowered to 1 BEF, private companies will still offer high wages for the noobs just so they can get them.

+1

by **Gibberish45** 2011-05-19, 20:51

Kylero wrote:I agree with your logic Gib, but lowering the min. wage won't help this. There's such high competition for workers because of the BAF communes, that even if its lowered to 1 BEF, private companies will still offer high wages for the noobs just so they can get them.

Then let's let the market make that determination not congress. If the best argument for the current min. wage is that it has no effect then why leave it on the books?

by **Kylero** 2011-05-19, 20:55

Well put, I'd go for a reduction.

by **Jofroi** 2011-05-19, 22:19

I'm against a reduction. This'd just make easier tax evasions.

by **Ward De Bever** 2011-05-19, 22:59

Skill 1 workers are very productive for a GM, that's why i choose to pay them 45 BEF. For me, the minimum salary is 45 BEF and with current price levels i intend to keep it that way. It gives some social protection and even new players can buy some nice f&w. If the state would raise minimum salary to 45, i would applaud - it would show that Belgium cares for its citizens.

by **Olv007** 2011-05-19, 23:24

What do we do with the BAF companies then? Wink

by **Gibberish45** 2011-05-20, 02:30

Jofroi wrote:I'm against a reduction. This'd just make easier tax evasions.

Is the purpose of the minimum wage to collect taxes? Nothing can be done about tax evasion and we shouldn't try to set wages in an attempt to collect 4 more BEF/day from unscrupulous company owners and their employees.

@ Ward, what you pay your workers is your prerogative. I have no idea how profitable your businesses are but my first guess would be you're running more of a cash neutral charity than a profit making machine.

by **Jofroi** 2011-05-20, 08:59

Gibberish, trust me on this, Ward do make a lot of profit on his workers Wink

. (and by this I don't mean 10% on everything produced, but more 50%).

by **Ward De Bever** 2011-05-20, 09:25

Gibberish45 wrote:@ Ward, what you pay your workers is your prerogative. I have no idea how profitable your businesses are but my first guess would be you're running more of a cash neutral charity than a profit making machine.

Well, a CM's prerogative is to attract employees and make/keep them happy. You can exactly calculate Bever Dams' profitability with the new productivity formula. - you'll indeed see that with current wages and current prices on the Belgian market for Q5 food and Q5 weapons, overall Bever Dams profitability is still very high. The Belgian raws market is undersupplied, that's why i'm forced to try to produce raws myself (so as not to have to go shopping on foreign markets every other day or so). Please do undercut my prices and pay higher salaries to your workers, i encourage every competition on our emerging market. Also, if you're worried about my relatively high salaries and low selling prices, please don't, and join the fun Cool

I recently proposed a scheme for running stock-held Q5 fp companies (still by far the most profitable in the game) - however, it encountered absolutely no interest by investors and i had to cancel it.

by **Fhaemita Malodorous** 2011-05-20, 10:34

You wages makes it impossible though for other companies to get people to work for them. For small time business owners it's impossible to beat your wages and make a profit.

by **Jofroi** 2011-05-20, 10:51

Indeed it is not. But this is how capitalism run. People that are more efficient, earn more.

by **Fhaemita Malodorous** 2011-05-20, 11:00

Jofroi wrote:Indeed it is not. But this is how capitalism run. People that are more efficient, earn more.

Go communism!!

by **Jofroi** 2011-05-20, 11:31

I agree ^^.

by **Ward De Bever** 2011-05-20, 11:44

Fhaemita Malodorous wrote:
You wages makes it impossible though for other companies to get people to work for them. For small time business owners it's impossible to beat your wages and make a profit.

I repeat that i proposed a scheme to permit investing in a high-Q fp company with only 1 gold. 1 gold is not much, I hope you agree. We can still revive this scheme if you're interested. With the expected profits, you may cross-subsidize the salaries of your raws workers, just as i do now. Btw, high salaries are a blessing for Joe Average/Jan met de pet/Monsieur Durand Wink

by **Fhaemita Malodorous** 2011-05-20, 12:10

Ward De Bever wrote:
Fhaemita Malodorous wrote:
You wages makes it impossible though for other companies to get people to work for them. For small time business owners it's impossible to beat your wages and make a profit.
I repeat that i proposed a scheme to permit investing in a high-Q fp company with only 1 gold. 1 gold is not much, I hope you agree. We can still revive this scheme if you're interested. With the expected profits, you may cross-subsidize the salaries of your raws workers, just as i do now. Btw, high salaries are a blessing for Joe Average/Jan met de pet/Monsieur Durand

Sounds very interesting Smile

by **Boklevski** 2011-05-20, 12:44

Fhaemita Malodorous wrote:
You wages makes it impossible though for other companies to get people to work for them. For small time business owners it's impossible to beat your wages and make a profit.

Exactly.

Gibberish45 wrote:Then let's let the market make that determination not congress. If the best argument for the current min. wage is that it has no effect then why leave it on the books?

... and exactly.

Apparently, looking at the high wages offered, the market fixes everything itself. Lowering minimum wages is thus both from the capitalist (limit market intervention) and communist (communes with low as possible) point-of-view a logic choice. Jofroi and Fheamita can start their nice little commune, and Ward and Gib can compete for wages... everybody's happy... Wink

Wages won't drop (as they are above minimum wage anyway), but the market/economic is more flexible in case times change. I don't see any objection against lowering it.

Olv007 wrote:What do we do with the BAF companies then?

Yup, our wage will be screwed even more. But honestly, I could earn approx. 100 BEF on the market, so I don't care if I'm screwed for 5 BEF or 1 BEF a day. Razz

by **Jofroi** 2011-05-20, 13:05

I don't want communes. So I don't want low minimum wages.

Well I do want communes, but state ones, not private ones.

by **Gibberish45** 2011-05-20, 13:28

[quote="Ward De Bever"]

Gibberish45 wrote:The Belgian raws market is undersupplied, that's why i'm forced to try to produce raws myself (so as not to have to go shopping on foreign markets every other day or so).

As in RL, the mom and pop store can't compete with wal-mart. When you produce your own materials you increase your profitability exponentially. This is a remark not a complaint.

As Glenn mentioned, however, there is still no reason to leave the min. wage law on the books. The market sets the wage and congress should remove all obstacles, however unlikely.

by **Jofroi** 2011-05-20, 14:45

The BEF keep dropping and thus the wages will keep growing. So the minimum treshold will not affect the regular workers. So we can leave it at the current level.

The only people that are affected by this are the irregular workers.

by **Theneka** 2011-05-20, 15:15

Jofroi wrote:I don't want communes. So I don't want low minimum wages.

Well I do want communes, but state ones, not private ones.

by **xironn** 2011-05-24, 10:49

For me, a small time business owner it is IMPOSSIBLE to even come close to the current wages Ward de Bever is paying his workers. I'm all for giving workers incentives, and rewards. Either a bonus in BEF/Gold or Food/Weapons. But the current wages on the market are impossible for me to keep up with.
Neither can i afford to upgrade to Q5 production.

by **Bert_en_Ernie** 2011-05-24, 10:51

If you don't have a Q5 raw company it's best to fire all workers. You can't compete with the ones who do have such a company. It's cheaper to employ these people in you production companies and buy the raws on the market.

by **Ward De Bever** 2011-05-24, 11:28

xironn wrote:For me, a small time business owner it is IMPOSSIBLE to even come close to the current wages Ward de Bever is paying his workers.

Sorry to cause trouble but we need workers for fp's... and we also need lots of raws that the Belgian local market can't supply... wages at Dams are calculated for break-even production of Deer/Rubber raws at a selling price of 0.30 and our profits are all in Q5 food and weapons... still, Fhaemita is hiring with slightly higher gross salary offers than ours!

by **Fhaemita Malodorous** 2011-05-24, 12:57

Ward De Bever wrote:still, Fhaemita is hiring with slightly higher gross salary offers than ours!

True, my wages are a bit higher and I can seeing we rarely have to sell our raw's at 0.30 but it's almost always higher then that. The slightly higher wages got me got me 20 employees, 30 in total now.

Gibberish45 wrote:What happened to this discussion? There is no incentive to hire skill 0 workers @ 5 BEF (excluding philanthropist mentors) Let's drop the minimum all the way, if workers are in demand it will go back up.

The minimum wage for a skill 1 worker is 30 BEF, that is way higher then the minimum wage of 5 BEF.
No incentive to hire skill 1 workers? What they produce depends on the sort of company and what Q it is but I can assure they company owners can already make a good profit on skill 1 worker with the wages they are offering currently. There is enough incentive to employ skill 1 workers, I don't see the point of this prooposal. They call these things "symbool politiek" in Dutch

by **Bert_en_Ernie** 2011-05-24, 13:12

I hope they install again punishment for having more then 10 employees because not everyone can pay these high wages.

Not that I don't like high wages, but I prefer not having everyone working for the same person.

Fhaemita and Ward this is nothing personal. I understand you guys are just using the game mechanics as they are at the moment and I completely understand. I just think it would be more fair for everyone if the punishment is reinstalled.

by **Boklevski** 2011-05-24, 14:28

Bert_en_Ernie wrote:I hope they install again punishment for having more then 10 employees because not everyone can pay these high wages.

Or have the "standard" optimal amount of workers on 5 (and punish above that), and then have people invest to increase that level (+1 for 10 GOLD, for example). After all, in reality, big companies require investments as well, but in the long run, they can make more profit because they produce more.

Plus...

... it gets the admins 10 GOLD for everybody investing, so they would probably agree to my idea.

Damn, I'm soo ready to become eRep admin.

by **Bert_en_Ernie** 2011-05-24, 14:37

Boklevski wrote:Damn, I'm soo ready to become eRep admin.

Yes I think you are ready to apply.

by **Ward De Bever** 2011-05-24, 14:57

+1 ...yeah, Boklevski could sneakily choose sides for the Belgian Empire when the battleship is off course again Wink

by **Ward De Bever** 2011-05-24, 15:00

On topic: good idea to reinstate the optimal worker amount, Bok. I support it, this would be fairer.

by **Olv007** 2011-05-24, 20:28

I would support this as well.

by **NicknameFromRonny** 2011-05-26, 22:05

With the current economic module, the MW might need to be revisited.

Option 1: up

Since in every scale group, there is a wage above 45 BEF, the current "5 BEF" is a joke.
Nothing against Ward (congratz on your imperium, it's the result of good thinking and hard work) but most new workers go to Bever Dams atm which gives a proper pay. He sets the bar for other company owners.

Only way to put it up would be to make it 40 or 45.
+: social protection. You never know Ward for some reason doesn't put offers up anymore.
-: what with the BAF? The taxes roll back to the state and there can be some system put up that soldiers can buy from soldiercompanies for lower prices. Food/weaps to their needs. But it seems much work for nothing. Maybe a system with extra high wages? Above normal work wages? And letting them buy off the market?

Option 2: lowering it to 1 BEF.

Since our current 5 BEF doesn't change a thing, we could put it to 1 BEF. It would be helpfull to the BAF. Even if the policy of 5 BEF for soldiers stays atm, it would make it easy for them to change it if they want to.
The complaint has been made about tax evasion, but I don't think 1 or 5 BEF will make a real difference on that. (I'm not pro-wage taxation anyways, but that's another discussion)

So, to conclude, I'm in dubio, but I think both options are better ones then the current policy.

You're all welcome to point out where I made noobish mistakes.

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