Do you support the merge with eNetherlands?

Shadow : if i agreed your program or the program of konrad i would be in your party ...

shadowukcs wrote:


also: see my post above ( https://ebelgium.forumotion.net/t4009-do-you-support-the-merge-with-enetherlands#75701)

Unless some one wants to pay roughly 700 euro's go acquire another 2100 gold (to add to the 1800G we have in our jewcave), we won't be able to merge.

For the merge i agree your comment, what about this kind of problem.

Elynea wrote:Shadow : if i agreed your program or the program of konrad i would be in your party ...

shadowukcs wrote:


also: see my post above ( https://ebelgium.forumotion.net/t4009-do-you-support-the-merge-with-enetherlands#75701)

Unless some one wants to pay roughly 700 euro's go acquire another 2100 gold (to add to the 1800G we have in our jewcave), we won't be able to merge.

For the merge i agree your comment, what about this kind of problem.

well I agree with your program so maybe I should come over to you?

I started in BFB because it is a party to share a lot of things with the citizens.
At start, we were for the independence of the country. We need an army, we need more money for the progress....

I can't make here the program of BFB, it will not be a surprise soon

Now we can talk about the post.

So Elynea, let me understand you correctly. You are claiming that people vote/ join party agree 100 percent of all the issues and ideas...

Konrad Neumann wrote:So Elynea, let me understand you correctly. You are claiming that people vote/ join party agree 100 percent of all the issues and ideas...

it's important i think.

If you don't have different opinion, make only one party.

Elynea wrote:

Konrad Neumann wrote:So Elynea, let me understand you correctly. You are claiming that people vote/ join party agree 100 percent of all the issues and ideas...

it's important i think.

If you don't have different opinion, make only one party.

I think you do not understand what I am saying and I am confused at what you are trying to say as well. I think in reality we are saying the same thing but in different ways.

there is a difference between players on forum and in game.

Sure when you are talking with new players, you can know why they are here.
A lot of persons don't like forum, they prefer stay in game. In the BTA we have a lot who speak french, it's hard to go here, we speak english (and mine is very bad, i know).

example : i often see persons who say Bfb is died... but how many votes in elections? for the pp -) 36 votes.

Now, you can't know the opinion of the population if you debate only here.
Several persons don't see, a lot of persons are reading news and follow the game. Maybe they don't make comments but they are elife

eBelgians need a nice purpose for their country, not a trip about a group of persons.

Elynea wrote:there is a difference between players on forum and in game.

Sure when you are talking with new players, you can know why they are here.
A lot of persons don't like forum, they prefer stay in game. In the BTA we have a lot who speak french, it's hard to go here, we speak english (and mine is very bad, i know).

example : i often see persons who say Bfb is died... but how many votes in elections? for the pp -) 36 votes.

Now, you can't know the opinion of the population if you debate only here.
Several persons don't see, a lot of persons are reading news and follow the game. Maybe they don't make comments but they are elife

eBelgians need a nice purpose for their country, not a trip about a group of persons.

Then you can write articles and get them to come here but in the same article tell them about the detail. Ward's idea is not democratic at all. Like you said, most do not know what is going on (ingame and in the forum) and I think if you really ask them of their opinions etc, most of them will be against the merge. The idea that the if the party that wins CP and also controls the congress can without debate and forum vote and just go do it without anyone knowing etc is not democratic and it is unconstitutional.

In short.

-Must have ingame articles to tell people about it and the link to the debate in the forum
-Must have forum vote for constitutional reasons and 2/3 congress majority
-Ward's version of CP and Congress doing what they want without forum debate and vote is wrong.

@konrad : i'm for the liberty at first.

I will not use my position in the education to push a person in elections, or to take a position for a merge or not. I respect that, i hope you see what i mean. I can put a link on the BTA but i never say in the shout : you must vote for this one or other. A parti makes his programm, they are able to know where they want to go.

Now in this game, you have some categories : economy, politics, strategy.
We are playing a role. You defend your role or not. I don't critic a person or one other... because critic brings critic, it's a bad picture of our country. (just a smile for shadow)
We need a unity in ebelgium, that's all.

Each person here likes one category or more. I'm putting the link of the forum and irc in the shout of bTA. No obligation for me.

Elynea wrote:@konrad : i'm for the liberty at first.

I will not use my position in the education to push a person in elections, or to take a position for a merge or not. I respect that, i hope you see what i mean. I can put a link on the BTA but i never say in the shout : you must vote for this one or other. A parti makes his programm, they are able to know where they want to go.

Now in this game, you have some categories : economy, politics, strategy.
We are playing a role. You defend your role or not. I don't critic a person or one other... because critic brings critic, it's a bad picture of our country. (just a smile for shadow)
We need a unity in ebelgium, that's all.

Each person here likes one category or more. I'm putting the link of the forum and irc in the shout of bTA. No obligation for me.

Pretty much. However, I believe there should be more discussion of this in the public. I do not think there is anything wrong with having such debates in the media in the forums of an article. I think that the gov should write an neutral article about the merger and people can write articles base on their opinions and beliefs. I do not think this will create disunity at all.

With that said, this does not mean the person is telling others how to vote. It is just telling their position and their logic. Unlike Ward's version, this is known to the public and in the end it follows proper congressional and constitutional procedures and not just let the CP and Congress do what they like without any notification and justification to the community.

I for one, joined ATO because I am for the merge. Belgium is lacking in resources and active players to compete with other country's. A merge with eNL would help us with both these problems. However since Poland still is in control of (most of) eNL. The merge would be a long term plan, but that doesn't mean that we could not improve our relationship with the eNL community.

Short term economic option is to rent a eUk region, like I supposed some time ago. Once Netherlands, Germany or France are free from occupation, maybe we could try to rent some regions from them all? If we rent 5 regions, we could get a extra 40% weapons and 40 % food.
Giving us a total of 60% weapons and 80% food.
I know some will say its impossible to achieve this. But lets be ambitious for once and try.

iliancer wrote:I for one, joined ATO because I am for the merge. Belgium is lacking in resources and active players to compete with other country's. A merge with eNL would help us with both these problems. However since Poland still is in control of (most of) eNL. The merge would be a long term plan, but that doesn't mean that we could not improve our relationship with the eNL community.

Short term economic option is to rent a eUk region, like I supposed some time ago. Once Netherlands, Germany or France are free from occupation, maybe we could try to rent some regions from them all? If we rent 5 regions, we could get a extra 40% weapons and 40 % food.
Giving us a total of 60% weapons and 80% food.
I know some will say its impossible to achieve this. But lets be ambitious for once and try.

https://ebelgium.forumotion.net/t4009-do-you-support-the-merge-with-enetherlands#75701

The costs will be a million times bigger than the gains.

From economic point of view a merge is not the way forward. In the contrary even.

If you're after the bonuses, we would be much better off renting regions from eUK and Germany

Renting regions from UK and Germany is realistic? I would support this idea. Why don't we do it?

It would be fantastic to see a (relatively) huge Belgium on the map and the associated pride. Bonuses would indeed be enjoyable. It would profit to everyone since entrepreneurs would have much higher profits which they could invest in higher wages for workers.

I still feel the need to reply to Konrad's accusation of me wanting to bypass democracy or so. I say one thing: stop over-interpreting and (maybe deliberately) misinterpreting my words, i am tired of your wall-of-texts and the unhelpful messages in them.

I only made the factual conclusion that in-game actions could as well lead to a merger, through in-game democracy. I only wanted to point out that in the end, after all the debates and votes and shows of political will, it's the in-game vote that counts, for a 66% majority must declare NE in order to have war and the CP needs to be elected with a focus. Sufficient in-game military support must arise from the population and sympathisers. If that doesn't happen, the merger will not happen. That's all.

In the end, us renting South Netherlands would be the same as a merger. With Dutch and Polish agreement, why couldn't we do a mini-merger in the form of a rental? It would provide the Dutch with gold and the Polish with some stability. And us with prestige and bonuses. No need for huge money market operations, i think the idea of a merger was never to completely try to wipe NL, that would indeed be impossible. Just one region though, why not?

Pride and map is pointless. One should do a cost benefit analysis before proceeding. I think the Germans lands is problematic as it is hard to know who to do a deal to. If we do it with the Poles the Germans can RW it since eBE military is weak and nonexistent. If we deal with eGermany, the Poles might see this as choke points as well as heading towards NL and other interest. The Poles will be against this and most likely the Germans are not interested in this regardless. If renting is your goal, try the Brits.

I hope Ward can see my above post for what it is worth and to hopefully understand my logic behind it.

I voted yes as I think it will bring the two countries together after such a harsh and horrific history. I know though under the circumstances that this won't happen. We have people for and people against at the moment, I don't want to hurt both sides.

I'd like it to happen but I know it won't.

Konrad Neumann wrote:Pride and map is pointless. One should do a cost benefit analysis before proceeding. I think the Germans lands is problematic as it is hard to know who to do a deal to. If we do it with the Poles the Germans can RW it since eBE military is weak and nonexistent. If we deal with eGermany, the Poles might see this as choke points as well as heading towards NL and other interest. The Poles will be against this and most likely the Germans are not interested in this regardless. If renting is your goal, try the Brits.

last time we managed to convince both the germans and the poles of this


Imo eUK would be a better partner tho. The oil or cattle regions would be nice

i see a lot of posts, i think all says their opinion. What else?

What can we add to this thread, nothing. Wait and see now.

It will be better to see the opinion of others. We must stop to stay one week only of one topic, we must think about others things in eBelgium...

Thanks iliancer for your post, because you are a person frank and you respect the debate.

ps : to rent a region, we must have it at first.

A partial merger would need no monetary market 'fusion' or 'union' or conversion, so you can remove the 3000 gold needed for that. Remains 500-1000 gold (much less in fact, since a partial merger would be on a smaller scale), an amount we can handle when the national interest dictates it for a long-term project

define 'partial merger'

shadowukcs wrote:define 'partial merger'

Well, let's call it 'region renting', so we understand each other better.

splashdog wrote:NO!

Long-term region renting would amount to a partial merger in the mind of the communities. If it is performed successfully over some period of time, the rented region will 'naturally' have integrated and effectively become merged with Belgium. While we will always have to be alert and ready for a RW (though we should keep potential "RW-investor-speculators" away by minimizing their chance of succeeding), Belgium would grow in standing/prestige/power, and cohesion and population would increase with the added bonuses. The presence of a national project, which is modular to 7 regions, would greatly motivate citizens and convince foreigners to sympathise with our country!

why not make a war with ePoland? They have some regions who are useless.
Why not attack euh.... two countries, yes we can, we are so stronger.


it's a joke. I'm a little bored to see every day a lot of posts about propaganda in some sides.

Our economy is so bad? Before to say more regions, more profit.

Talk about more citizens active, it will be better.

splashdog wrote:NO!

As was expected from splashdog such post.
If you you are against give arguments not just these stupid comment.
If you have nothing intelligent to say then just stfu

https://ebelgium.forumotion.net/t3848-renting-a-region#76025

Elynea wrote:why not make a war with ePoland? They have some regions who are useless.
Why not attack euh.... two countries, yes we can, we are so stronger.


it's a joke. I'm a little bored to see every day a lot of posts about propaganda in some sides.

Our economy is so bad? Before to say more regions, more profit.

Talk about more citizens active, it will be better.

more regions = more active citizens

Critically wrote:https://ebelgium.forumotion.net/t3848-renting-a-region#76025

up

Ward De Bever wrote:

Elynea wrote:why not make a war with ePoland? They have some regions who are useless.
Why not attack euh.... two countries, yes we can, we are so stronger.


it's a joke. I'm a little bored to see every day a lot of posts about propaganda in some sides.

Our economy is so bad? Before to say more regions, more profit.

Talk about more citizens active, it will be better.

more regions = more active citizens

no Ward, you are wrong... in the story of the past, how much citizens are leaving with a merge?

A lot.

Ward De Bever wrote:

Critically wrote:https://ebelgium.forumotion.net/t3848-renting-a-region#76025

up

Ward De Bever wrote:

splashdog wrote:NO!

Long-term region renting would amount to a partial merger in the mind of the communities. If it is performed successfully over some period of time, the rented region will 'naturally' have integrated and effectively become merged with Belgium. While we will always have to be alert and ready for a RW (though we should keep potential "RW-investor-speculators" away by minimizing their chance of succeeding), Belgium would grow in standing/prestige/power, and cohesion and population would increase with the added bonuses. The presence of a national project, which is modular to 7 regions, would greatly motivate citizens and convince foreigners to sympathise with our country!

I don't really agree with the first part. When we talk about a merge, I see it as two community's becoming one. When we rent a region, there are still 2 separate community's. We will rent regions, that other country's have no use for. But it never becomes a part of Belgium. If we start calling it a part of Belgium, the "landlords" may get offended and stop renting it to us. Yes we will look bigger, but we must not get arrogant and should never call them a part of Belgium.

However I completely agree that we must be ready for RW speculators. I don't know if we already have something like this already. But maybe we should found a "foreign fighters force funds". Which makes a list of all the foreigners and foreign MU's that would want to fight for us. I know they usually offer themselves in time of need, but I like being prepared.
Secondly the FFFF gets a budget to stock up on tanks, food and foreign currencies to have people move here. Hopefully this will send a message out there: "we are prepared and have a large network of friends". Hopefully this will discourage RW speculators.

With this I agree with Elynea. People are joining their country, not their region. Having one more region won't bring us any citizen.

If we do this for sufficiently long time, communities will naturally merge. It could very well be the start of a fuller integration process. One main point I see would be adding German as a national language (not the official language, that remains English), as in real life (something on which East-Belgian patriots can associate with). I for one am ready to be a contact person for those who wish to continue speaking German. I would maximally inform them about things here and try to have them use English Also here, a translation of our body of laws would be very nice to have.

I strongly believe that renting one region, if successful, may be the start of a deeper and broader integration process later.