Um... Excuse Me Everyone?

by **RayCaptain** 2011-10-18, 21:02

MaryamQ wrote:Frankly, I see a lot of this on both sides. People are clearly entrenched in their own camps and aren't willing to admit that the other side could be right about anything. Any criticism of an opinion is viewed as an ad hominem attack - and often criticisms are framed in such a way that there is justification for this view, unfortunately. If anyone, in fact, wants unity here, everybody is going to have to stop pointing fingers and start looking for ways to compromise. It doesn't matter how many laws you have if you can't bring yourselves to treat one another respectfully.

^ This.

I really want to end the drama and come to a legit comprimise. Some sort of document that will be satisfactory to both sides... Obviously, there are sides. Obviously, we want different things. Can we please compile a list of things here and write up some official document?

Also, the first signs of flaming and I will request this thread closed.

Maybe some of us could care less if anything gets fixed (I honestly don't think there is anyone that is like that, but maybe there is); however, the rest of us are extremely tired of this crap... Anyway... Discuss.

by **jamster737** 2011-10-18, 21:11

I agree would there be any people who would like to work on this ? maybe one from each side and then someone from the gov

by **shadowukcs** 2011-10-18, 21:17

jamster737 wrote:I agree would there be any people who would like to work on this ? maybe one from each side and then someone from the gov

make it a collective public subforum with an open usergroup where ppl can add themselves if they want to participate

by **Manong Z** 2011-10-18, 21:31

All we need is love.

by **RayCaptain** 2011-10-18, 21:42

Sure, I just want it to be like... A non-flame section where we just work together to end this mess.

by **Olv007** 2011-10-18, 22:48

Welcome in Belgium, the land of compromises Wink

by **Fhaemita Malodorous** 2011-10-18, 22:50

RayCaptain wrote:Sure, I just want it to be like... A non-flame section where we just work together to end this mess.

I do think this is a good idea, maybe somebody who is neutral like MaryamQ (she would obviously be the best choice imho to lead the discussion and negotiations.

Olv007 wrote:Welcome in Belgium, the land of compromises

We need the dutch Poldermodel Razz

by tecuvo 2011-10-18, 23:41

i think the 2 sides are

- on the one hand those who want to stick to the ingame rules, with only a few "additional" things like mofa, moha/recruiting/education, and maybe some immigration policy (strict or not)

- on the other hand those who want to make to make a real virtual country with it's institutions and its legacy.

i think it's possible to unite our 2 sides, but the main problem is that "additional rules", outside erepublik.com, aren't binding. we saw that last weeks.

so here's my first attempt: abolish everything, except a basic cabinet
no constitution, no laws.

many of you won't agree with that, so feel free what you would like to scrap/add/change and describe how you see it.after gathering all the different opinions, we can start working on a reasonable, well-balanced compromise

by **Kylero** 2011-10-19, 00:25

so here's my first attempt: abolish everything, except a basic cabinet
no constitution, no laws.

Okay, here's my first attempt:

create a robust constitution stating exactly what you can and cannot do.

Now...let's compromise :/

by **M.Leviathin** 2011-10-19, 00:32

http://www.erepbelgium.com/t4333-mleviathin-s-glorious-10-points

This will save us.

by **ThomasRED** 2011-10-19, 00:39

I don't think sides are a problem...

When i make remarks on a minister, about mistakes done, or ask questions, it's not because i'm from a side and he is on an other side... It's because it's how it work, working to improve our Country...

The problem for some is that we are too little active players in the community, so many people look at remarks like it is personnal...

For example, when i complaint about the fact we proposed a mpp to estonia after we proposed a mpp to their ennemy and refused, it's a legitimate complaint, and it's my role as citizen to bring the issue to the Congress to solve it and try to improve our foreign relations.

But what i am told ? That i'm from a side so i will burn eveyrthing that don't come from my side, or that i'm a polish citizen and don't desserve answers etc... But Ministers are in the Government, there is a congress, there is congressmembers, there is citizens, and remarks and critics can be done, if they are constructive...

Some people don't assume the fact they are in a position where they will be asked to do their best, and to answer why they didn't when they do mistakes... It's how government/opposition work, and it's how a country can improve.

by **Kylero** 2011-10-19, 00:44

^That

We don't have a "sides" problem...we have a tr0ll problem!

by **RayCaptain** 2011-10-19, 01:08

@ThomasRed - What I pretty much get from your statement is this.

A: We're a small community so we all take everything a tad bit more personal.
B: People just need to not take stuff so personal.

@Kylero - Well, even if "sides" aren't our major problem, we all agree that reforms are needed (?)

Abolishing everything seems a little... undoable almost. However massive reforms, such as a new constitution and such are quite doable. Levi, some of your points, in one form or another, could be fused into the new constitution one way or another...

But really, this only has a chance if it catches pretty much everyone's attention... Or at least the Congress.

Maybe this time we can differentiate between what rules apply where? Ie. maybe there are more rules than in-game rules on the forum. I know someone like Shadow wouldn't really enjoy that at all, but at the same time we might get the SC reformed or even dismantled. It all depends on what the masses (that's you) want.

by **Ward De Bever** 2011-10-19, 01:18

RayCaptain wrote:@ThomasRed - What I pretty much get from your statement is this.

A: We're a small community so we all take everything a tad bit more personal.
B: People just need to not take stuff so personal.

@Kylero - Well, even if "sides" aren't our major problem, we all agree that reforms are needed (?)

Abolishing everything seems a little... undoable almost. However massive reforms, such as a new constitution and such are quite doable. Levi, some of your points, in one form or another, could be fused into the new constitution one way or another...

But really, this only has a chance if it catches pretty much everyone's attention... Or at least the Congress.

Maybe this time we can differentiate between what rules apply where? Ie. maybe there are more rules than in-game rules on the forum. I know someone like Shadow wouldn't really enjoy that at all, but at the same time we might get the SC reformed or even dismantled. It all depends on what the masses (that's you) want.

It has my full attention. An interesting thought experiment, because we can choose what we would replace the current situation with.

by **Kylero** 2011-10-19, 01:21

I really think we're at a "policy window", meaning that the time is ripe (politically) for some major reforms in this country. But with the community divided (which I'm not so sure we are, I think it may just be 3 or 4 people bickering over ego), we have the opportunity to "air it all out" and put together something that we can all agree upon. If shadow doesn't like forum rules, well, shadow isn't eBelgium (no offense), the exit is down the hall to your left.

What we need now, which I've been saying lately, is for people to put up their plans/ideas, in proposal form, and let us discuss it. Until people are willing to do that, we'll just argue. But if we can argue CONSTRUCTIVELY, the end result will be something that the COMMUNITY agreed upon, meaning that if you don't like it, you were in the minority...sorry about your luck. But you have had to add something to the discussion.

I agree with much of what MaryamQ has said lately. We may be in a time where the purpose/intent of our current laws have lost their merit, and we're fighting with minds of the past (although I am one of them), and therefore we need to fix it, now!

by **NLSP** 2011-10-19, 01:26

Kylero wrote:I agree with much of what MaryamQ has said lately. We may be in a time where the purpose/intent of our current laws have lost their merit, and we're fighting with minds of the past (although I am one of them), and therefore we need to fix it, now!

I have to totally agree with this. While I am one of the people who is hardly defending what we have, I also do realise that what we have isn't good. I tried in the past a few times to get things improved but due all kind of reasons such efforts almost never succeed...
However now could be a good time to do so...

by **RayCaptain** 2011-10-19, 01:52

Kylero wrote:I really think we're at a "policy window", meaning that the time is ripe (politically) for some major reforms in this country. But with the community divided (which I'm not so sure we are, I think it may just be 3 or 4 people bickering over ego), we have the opportunity to "air it all out" and put together something that we can all agree upon. If shadow doesn't like forum rules, well, shadow isn't eBelgium (no offense), the exit is down the hall to your left.

What we need now, which I've been saying lately, is for people to put up their plans/ideas, in proposal form, and let us discuss it. Until people are willing to do that, we'll just argue. But if we can argue CONSTRUCTIVELY, the end result will be something that the COMMUNITY agreed upon, meaning that if you don't like it, you were in the minority...sorry about your luck. But you have had to add something to the discussion.

I agree with much of what MaryamQ has said lately. We may be in a time where the purpose/intent of our current laws have lost their merit, and we're fighting with minds of the past (although I am one of them), and therefore we need to fix it, now!

^ Kylero, you basically took what I wanted to say and said it. I thank you lol...

So, can we get some sort of push behind this? An "official" topic or... How do you all want to do this? Get MaryamQ in here if we need to, the longer we sit on this, the more we'll just get bogged down. Chop chop =P

by **Kylero** 2011-10-19, 02:06

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/viewform?formkey=dFNvamxxOXRmTlRRaHBhYlB0UjZRSHc6MQ

by **ThomasRED** 2011-10-19, 02:21

by goopypants 2011-10-19, 02:53

The root cause, not any of the various symptoms, is that eBelgium is dull.

Without something to distract people (new missions, new in-game events, new-TW), they become bored and complacent. All that energy that could be directed outward or constructively is focused inward.

The only thing we have to unite our eCountry is how little happens. No common rallying point, nothing to bring everyone together, just plenty of time to find fault with everyone else.

by **RayCaptain** 2011-10-19, 04:27

I salute you guys on the poll.

Goopy, you're right about the inactivity being a major cause of issues; however, I've been on the eUS forums and they have their issues to. There will always be issues, I just think that things have become a tad bit too unexceptable and we should start from square 1 or somewhat close to it.

by **ThomasRED** 2011-10-19, 04:36

Is it real issues that people make remarks on gov members, on the work done or not done by the government, that congressmembers raise questions ? Or does the issue is that these remarks are not accepted because of "sides" ?

Anyway, if something good can raise from this poll, i'm all for it...

by **NLSP** 2011-10-19, 11:03

goopypants wrote:The root cause, not any of the various symptoms, is that eBelgium is dull.

Without something to distract people (new missions, new in-game events, new-TW), they become bored and complacent. All that energy that could be directed outward or constructively is focused inward.

That was one of the things I was trying to say Smile

But I am interested in the results of the poll...

by **shadowukcs** 2011-10-19, 11:10

I laugh at all the people saying there aren't 'sides' in eBelgium. Are you all really so naive or so blind? Or do you just don't want to see it.

Fact: there are 2 sides in eBelgium.
Fact: they can't seem to work together
Fact: they do everything to block each other

denying it is not going to make it easier. Oh and TR, you forgot one important part in your poll: 'remove all admins and chose new one?'

Because that's a major point of frustration with many citizens as well. When you have admins on this board who abuse their power to punish those that they don't like or propose that admins "kick" ministers out, you can never achieve unity.

by **ThomasRED** 2011-10-19, 11:28

Shadow, this is not my poll...
Even if Konrad told me that my poll was crap too...

And there is sides for people who want sides. I'm not in any side, or maybe the Polish side according to you, and i work with only one goal : improving eBE, and not the goal of blocking the "other side".

by **shadowukcs** 2011-10-19, 11:49

ThomasRED wrote:Shadow, this is not my poll...
Even if Konrad told me that my poll was crap too...

And there is sides for people who want sides. I'm not in any side, or maybe the Polish side according to you, and i work with only one goal : improving eBE, and not the goal of blocking the "other side".

no, you're deffo on the elitist side. The side where all admins are in.

also the poll crap. If you refresh the page you can fill it in again.

by **ThomasRED** 2011-10-19, 11:59

Konrad didnt saw it here when he told my poll was crap (question are biased, etc...), he just saw the link i put on eBrussels... The occasion for "this" side to attack the "polish" side was too nice i guess ;-)

by **Nohjis** 2011-10-19, 14:29

M.Leviathin wrote:http://www.erepbelgium.com/t4333-mleviathin-s-glorious-10-points

^ This

You can not expand endlessly on the in-game-world in the forums. As far as I've noticed there's about a dozen of active users on this forum. If you want eBelgium to take off, ingame events need to be the focus. I'm new and it took me a month to decide to come on this forum to dig a little deeper into the political structure of eRep. I'ld say the majority of players does not have a particular preference for eBelgium as a country. As such they will either move to another eCountry or just quit all-together if the eBelgium congress and government can't even provide the basic needs for citizens. In terms of game elements that means be able to be elected from time to time, be able to work every day, be able to have a battle to fight in, be able to complete MU actions, be able to sell their excess goods,...

Most people don't get upset about the fact that someone is minister while they broke a law if there is no ingame punishment. They get upset that the minister was late to do the MPPs if it means they'll have no battles unless they pay 2 x 20 BEF at least, they get upset when their MU commander never sets up the daily mission or never sends the supplies for being an active MU member. They get upset afterwards if they go on the forums and 5 people are bickering over trivialities while 450 others are losing out on part of the game experience.

Learn to differentiate and take up responsibilities for your actions. This community is far too small to even try to wipe out favoritism. A very basic set of guidelines for in game policymaking (Constitution) and an extended set of guidelines (Law & Court) for the roleplay aspects of the forum is the only viable option.

by **Konrad Neumann** 2011-10-19, 15:32

shadowukcs wrote:
ThomasRED wrote:Shadow, this is not my poll...
Even if Konrad told me that my poll was crap too...

And there is sides for people who want sides. I'm not in any side, or maybe the Polish side according to you, and i work with only one goal : improving eBE, and not the goal of blocking the "other side".

no, you're deffo on the elitist side. The side where all admins are in.

also the poll crap. If you refresh the page you can fill it in again.

+1 All TR is is an elite that believes that he is the monarch of eBE or something. From controlling BfB org when he is not PP to the forum admin thing which he refuse to step down and forces the idea of "forum owner" trumps congress etc, nothing more than absolute power will please TR.

by **Kylero** 2011-10-19, 16:21

A. It is my poll
B. I did not ask TR to paste it into the forum, so the refresh issue does not make the poll "crap" (unless someone is too immature to do it more than once)
C. That is a good suggestion for a question, and there will be follow-up polls to this one.

by **RayCaptain** 2011-10-19, 18:21

Konrad Neumann wrote:
shadowukcs wrote:
ThomasRED wrote:Shadow, this is not my poll...
Even if Konrad told me that my poll was crap too...

And there is sides for people who want sides. I'm not in any side, or maybe the Polish side according to you, and i work with only one goal : improving eBE, and not the goal of blocking the "other side".

no, you're deffo on the elitist side. The side where all admins are in.

also the poll crap. If you refresh the page you can fill it in again.

+1 All TR is is an elite that believes that he is the monarch of eBE or something. From controlling BfB org when he is not PP to the forum admin thing which he refuse to step down and forces the idea of "forum owner" trumps congress etc, nothing more than absolute power will please TR.

I'll be the first to throw this out there. If you just wanna slam someone, don't post. I'm not putting up with it from anyone. Look, I understand your frustration with anything considered "elitist", but, unless you want to come back to Belgium, it doesn't need to take up your time...

Again, no one slams anyone. The end.

by **Kylero** 2011-10-19, 18:28

Um... Excuse Me Everyone? Everybody-love-everybody-a-s

Everybody Love Everybody (ELE) COME ON!!!

by **Procuste** 2011-10-19, 18:52

Nohjis' intervention is really important, I think it sums up many eBelgian's point of view. We should listen to him. Wink

(And I'd like to have a definition of the elitism Konrad keeps talking about, I don't understand what he means ^^)

by **NLSP** 2011-10-19, 19:09

eBelgium is for Konrad a place that is divided by one strict line. Everyone that for him is placed at one side of that line are 'the elites' and according to his posts he blame them to hold eBelgium back, they only want power and they are a bunch of friends helping each other in every possible (legitimate or not) way there is.
The other side of the line are then 'the others' or 'the people' and they work hard to help eBelgium but are continuously boycotted by 'the elites'. They never had any kind of power but they are still fighting for a more justice enviroment.

=> That is what I get from Konrad's posts. It is however my opinion that there is no such one clear line, and you will find people who's opinions will not be easily placed at one side of that line. Also you will find in the distinction made by konrad, that people who are part of one group (for konrad) have much more properties of the other group.

It is an image that is not nuanced enough (what doesn't mean that there are breakinglines in this society on certain aspects)

by **shadowukcs** 2011-10-19, 19:17

NLSP wrote:eBelgium is for Konrad a place that is divided by one strict line. Everyone that for him is placed at one side of that line are 'the elites' and according to his posts he blame them to hold eBelgium back, they only want power and they are a bunch of friends helping each other in every possible (legitimate or not) way there is.

I share that view 100%

NLSP wrote:
The other side of the line are then 'the others' or 'the people' and they work hard to help eBelgium but are continuously boycotted by 'the elites'. They never had any kind of power but they are still fighting for a more justice enviroment.

ditto as above. The Fhae for moderator post, is yet another example of that.

NLSP wrote:
=> That is what I get from Konrad's posts. It is however my opinion that there is no such one clear line, and you will find people who's opinions will not be easily placed at one side of that line. Also you will find in the distinction made by konrad, that people who are part of one group (for konrad) have much more properties of the other group.

there are indeed some in the middle, but most are very much divided in 2 camps.

by **Procuste** 2011-10-19, 19:30

Ok, thanks. Surprised

Yet this elitist idea is very strange to hear about since those who claim being victims of elitism are utterly active members of our community.

To me you, being a victim of elitism means be kept in the shadow, not having the right to express yourself and not being able to be active since you're constantly pushed apart. Yet, we can pretty much hear Shad, Konrad, Fhaemita, MG or Mikhail. scratch

by **Konrad Neumann** 2011-10-19, 20:49

Procuste wrote:Ok, thanks.

Yet this elitist idea is very strange to hear about since those who claim being victims of elitism are utterly active members of our community.

To me you, being a victim of elitism means be kept in the shadow, not having the right to express yourself and not being able to be active since you're constantly pushed apart. Yet, we can pretty much hear Shad, Konrad, Fhaemita, MG or Mikhail.

Thanks NLSP for a good and fair analysis.

@Procuste

There are different levels of elitism. Not all elites are equal or the same. Some elites who are so big and so powerful in their influence that they become institutionalized that if they open their mouth, it is almost a law by decree. Some institutional elites are like ThomasRed imo for it is almost taboo to suggest that his idea sucks etc. Also if he said the BAF is good, which he does, it is taboo to bash the BAF and to voice views to reduce support and spending for the BAF.

The institutionalized elites create a cultural hegemony in which they control public perception. They for the most part also control the agenda setting in the state of affairs in the media and other social discourses. ThomasRed have a say in everything and has hard powers (force) via admin powers. He has access to the congress and he is the illegitimate voice of BfB since he controls the org and is not PP. While institutionalized elites exist everywhere, but I am concerned about eBE since elites of this nature like TR has so much power and influence, he is almost like a king in eBE. Who regulates him? No one. He said Ward should not get a month ban, it became an reality. The power he has much more than any other citizens in eBE. His voice becomes norms not because it has any merits etc, but just because he said it and the amount of hard power he has to maintain his position. He definitely protect his supporters like Wald while sanctions people who do not support his cause and vision. (Shadow). There is a double standard in law etc. This is something that I cannot accept. The word of one man trumps the laws that he help set up. In the end, he is law.

by **Procuste** 2011-10-19, 21:31

Thanks, I understand what you mean by elitism now. And you would like this situation to change, but what would you like to see instead ?

The trouble with this opinion is that you'll always have leaders who gain power and people to follow them. That's part of the human nature. Wink

by **ThomasRED** 2011-10-19, 21:52

If we listen to Konrad, he will become an "institutional elite"... :-s

But to be honest, he is giving me too much credit... It's not because i say something that people do it, every citizen can think by himself, and when i read Konrad i have the feeling that he think belgians citizens are idiots who blindly listen to my preachs.

If belgian citizens give me some credits because of my experience and work for eBelgium, which they find valuable, or not, i should leave, stop to help, and quit this forum to let them be able to think by themselves ?

What i have difficulties to understand is that peoples who complain about elitism are people who are victim from elitism, that's why they complain, but in eBE, the ones that complains are the one who are in power, elected ingame by our citizens, or choosen by our CP, while i'm only a "polish citizen" according to them. They think i have more power, and would like to grab it too ? But i don't have this "invisible" power... You should give more respect to the belgians citizens than you give credit to me... :-/

by **Xgentis Lempereur** 2011-10-19, 21:54

If we listen to ThomasRED , he will become an "institutional elite"... :-s

But to be honest, he is giving me too much credit... It's not because i say something that people do it, every citizen can think by himself, and when i read ThomasRED i have the feeling that he think belgians citizens are idiots who blindly listen to my preachs.

If belgian citizens give me some credits because of my experience and work for eBelgium, which they find valuable, or not, i should leave, stop to help, and quit this forum to let them be able to think by themselves ?

What i have difficulties to understand is that peoples who complain about elitism are people who are victim from elitism, that's why they complain, but in eBE, the ones that complains are the one who are in power, elected ingame by our citizens, or choosen by our CP, while i'm only a "polish citizen" according to them. They think i have more power, and would like to grab it too ? But i don't have this "invisible" power... You should give more respect to the belgians citizens than you give credit to me... :-/

by **Olv007** 2011-10-19, 21:57

Xgentis Lempereur wrote:If we listen to ThomasRED , he will become an "institutional elite"... :-s

But to be honest, he is giving me too much credit... It's not because i say something that people do it, every citizen can think by himself, and when i read ThomasRED i have the feeling that he think belgians citizens are idiots who blindly listen to my preachs.

If belgian citizens give me some credits because of my experience and work for eBelgium, which they find valuable, or not, i should leave, stop to help, and quit this forum to let them be able to think by themselves ?

What i have difficulties to understand is that peoples who complain about elitism are people who are victim from elitism, that's why they complain, but in eBE, the ones that complains are the one who are in power, elected ingame by our citizens, or choosen by our CP, while i'm only a "polish citizen" according to them. They think i have more power, and would like to grab it too ? But i don't have this "invisible" power... You should give more respect to the belgians citizens than you give credit to me... :-/

yes Xgentis, what's your point in quoting TR without adding anything to it? All that just to replace "Konrad" by "TR"?

by **Xgentis Lempereur** 2011-10-19, 22:02

Olv007 wrote:
Xgentis Lempereur wrote:If we listen to ThomasRED , he will become an "institutional elite"... :-s

But to be honest, he is giving me too much credit... It's not because i say something that people do it, every citizen can think by himself, and when i read ThomasRED i have the feeling that he think belgians citizens are idiots who blindly listen to my preachs.

If belgian citizens give me some credits because of my experience and work for eBelgium, which they find valuable, or not, i should leave, stop to help, and quit this forum to let them be able to think by themselves ?

What i have difficulties to understand is that peoples who complain about elitism are people who are victim from elitism, that's why they complain, but in eBE, the ones that complains are the one who are in power, elected ingame by our citizens, or choosen by our CP, while i'm only a "polish citizen" according to them. They think i have more power, and would like to grab it too ? But i don't have this "invisible" power... You should give more respect to the belgians citizens than you give credit to me... :-/

yes Xgentis, what's your point in quoting TR without adding anything to it? All that just to replace "Konrad" by "TR"?

It seemed to fit him more then Konrad. Razz

by Mikhail Alexander 2011-10-19, 22:08

If you created the United Netherlands again, it may teach some of you how to actually behave and understand that most Dutch people are tolerant people and they just wish for politics, not trolls or whining :3

by **MaryamQ** 2011-10-20, 02:15

Since it was quoting me that started this thread, perhaps it is time for me to add something to it. To start with, I like and respect almost everybody in this discussion and probably would like the rest more if I knew them better. I have nothing against disagreeing. I have disagreed with every one of you at some time or other. I also have nothing against opposition. I have always maintained, from the time I entered eBelgium, that good opposition keeps a government healthy and honest. But what I see here is not about good opposition, it is about personal grudges, a power struggle that mostly involves a few selected individuals and the apparent (but mistaken) idea that if one group (whichever you favor) somehow gets to be in control, everything will suddenly be perfect around here, if only the other group will just give up any pretensions to a voice. Granted, this is a small community that has had some amount of infighting as long as I can remember, but it is really becoming ridiculous.

In this situation, it seems pretty absurd to me to deny that there are "sides". Even the most casual observer must see who does not like whom here, and this apparent dislike colors every interaction in every part of the forum, and presumably on IRC, although I have not been present there for some time to know this. Making everything personal certainly does increase the drama level, but it does nothing for the productivity level. Allowing that the nature of the game plus RL does cause quite a bit of turnover in the community, does it never occur to you that there is a reason people who have been active and involved here do not stay even if they keep playing the game? Could it be that the constant drama and lack of progress that springs from that drama is just plain wearying?

Ray has tried hard to get a dialog going here, and again the thread is deteriorating into the same old personal accusations and arguments over nothing. I do see a few (and no, I am not naming names... if you are honest you know who they are) who are trying to remain neutral and objective, but they are rapidly being overridden by those who would rather fight than do something constructive. To paraphrase my mother, if you don't have anything nice (or constructive) to say, it would be better if you said nothing at all.

by **M.Leviathin** 2011-10-20, 03:42

To quote a song you might be familiar with:

"But the workers will rise!We will not compromise
For we know that the old regime must die."

Nohjis wrote:
M.Leviathin wrote:http://www.erepbelgium.com/t4333-mleviathin-s-glorious-10-points

^ This

You can not expand endlessly on the in-game-world in the forums.

by **RayCaptain** 2011-10-20, 18:34

I'm not in congress... yet... So go do something and make eBelgium GREAT ^-^

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