Why Don't We Stop The Pretense

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Why Don't We Stop The Pretense

Post by Konrad Neumann on 2015-01-28, 05:01

I am not convinced that eBE as a community is against the PTO. Year after year you have people who claims they are against the PTO but they do the opposite. They are against the wipe and they drive out many people who truly commit their time and effort to combat the PTO. eBE overall does not care about the PTO. Many members are lazy and short sighted. Many members too are unwilling to make hard sacrifices to prevent the PTO. Others are not willing to take responsibility to do what is needed. In the end, despite the rhetoric, eBE dies not care if their country is being PTOed or not.

So the question is, why continue with this pretense? If no one really cares, why even bother with an immigration policy? If no one takes responsibility for anything and just sits on their ass and spews out hot gas about how they hate PTOs and does nothing, why even bother with these procedures? Those who do not follow the rules will do their own thing. Those who "cares" do not take responsibility and muddles through not caring about anything. Governance is hard. It requires responsibility and accountability. I do not see any of that in eBE government at all.

If you are not going to fight against the PTO and capitulate, then stop treating the immigrants who did not follow procedures as the enemy. If you give up on this struggle, then accept defeat and move on. Either you move to a different country or accept the changes in your community. But this BS is not doing both sides any good. Either eBE takes responsibility and back up their words with action, or accept these new citizens as your own. This pretense is pointless as the community is losing this fight. You do not have solid control of the government and congress. Your current course will not end well for you.

So you have a choice. Either be real and take action to fight against the PTO, or accept these new citizens and those who broke the immigration rules as the new norm. Accept them as the future of eBE. This war and this pretense is not a winning formula. It hurts both sides and eBE will not win. Execute real and lasting anti PTO policies like wipes and party coordination and blacklisting might save your country. This is only possible if there is a national will as well as the ability to tolerate sacrifices for a prolonged period of time. The other option which is more realistic for the Making peace and accepting them will at least get you a position in the future order. If not you will get nothing. Base on the culture and activity level of the community, making peace and accepting them is the easier option but the community as you know it would most likely change greatly.
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Re: Why Don't We Stop The Pretense

Post by Fhaemita Malodorous on 2015-01-28, 07:19


1000% agreed

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Re: Why Don't We Stop The Pretense

Post by G.W.Junior on 2015-01-28, 10:28

Konrad Neumann wrote:I am not convinced that eBE as a community is against the PTO.  

eRepublik Definition

Political Takeover (PTO) - When a highly organized group from a densely populated Country moves into a separate country and gains political power of said country by out numbering other citizens in an election.

Well well, yes we are against PTOers, but you have to read the EREPUBLIK DEFINITION about PTO, The major part of Belgian State Security are original from Flanders, excepted me and few others, what i even try to translate the BSS Week News in Flemish

Now tell me how many Belgians Country Presidents are from England,USA ?



Now follow the picture



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Re: Why Don't We Stop The Pretense

Post by Boklevski on 2015-01-28, 17:21

I think the option you gave to accept is already the new reality. Many have left when the wipe (about a year ago) was prolonged, leaving behind a few individuals who wouldn't stand a chance on their own... and getting wiped over and over again just doesn't work anymore.

The initial PTO has been pretty much averted. With that, I mean the hit-and-run guys who would like to steal the state accounts.

Others have stayed in eBelgium or returned, but with time all has changed. There are now all kinds of individuals in eBelgium. Most are active only in-game as two-clickers. Most have completely different views, especially on immigration and the laws. But having differences is no problem on itself.

That is -in fact- part of the new reality.

"Eclypsia" is not doing a PTO.
"ChristijanXD and co." are not doing a PTO.
"G.W. Junior" is not doing a PTO.
"The Elite" is not doing a PTO.

We're just different groups in the same country. Having different opinions. But living together, and forming this country together.

[ Please imagine a huge orchestra starting to play the eBelgian anthem and eBelgian flags waving everywhere, while crowds of people cheer and joy and live happily ever after. ]
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Re: Why Don't We Stop The Pretense

Post by Fhaemita Malodorous on 2015-01-28, 18:01

Boklevski wrote:I think the option you gave to accept is already the new reality. Many have left when the wipe (about a year ago) was prolonged, leaving behind a few individuals who wouldn't stand a chance on their own... and getting wiped over and over again just doesn't work anymore.

You are actually wrong, most people like Konrad, Maryam, NLSP, me Cotarius and others (I know I forgot many more).  Why did those people leave? Because people where unwilling to do what was needed to stop the PTO. The people who left where people who were the people who where for the wipe but people where to shortsighted and wanted the wipe to stop.


Boklevski wrote:That is -in fact- part of the new reality.

"Eclypsia" is not doing a PTO.
"ChristijanXD and co." are not doing a PTO.
"G.W. Junior" is not doing a PTO.
"The Elite" is not doing a PTO.

And that is why the active people left  Rolling Eyes

Boklevski wrote:We're just different groups in the same country. Having different opinions. But living together, and forming this country together.

ChristijanXD, G.W. Junior etc are still letting in people, they are still unwilling to work with the community and are still unwilling to follow basic rules setup by eBelgium, unwilling to do things democratically and trying to push through their will, letting in people breaking immigration rules so they will get the majority in eBelgium. You think letting in people and breaking rules aren't PTO'ers?

I agree with Konrad that eBelgium is doomed, people left have no spine and not willing to stand up for what is right and would rather let Belgium be taken over then have a conflict with a opposing group of people who do not give a s*** about eBelgium and it's community anyway. G.W. Junior have show not be to be able to be reasonable they have double standards, one set of rules for "the elite" and a whole other set of rules for him and his friends. Good luck trying to work with those kind of people.

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Re: Why Don't We Stop The Pretense

Post by G.W.Junior on 2015-01-28, 18:44

Fhaemita Malodorous wrote:

You are actually wrong, most people like Konrad, Maryam, NLSP, me Cotarius and others (I know I forgot many more).  Why did those people leave?


All Belgian CP Rolling Eyes

konrad Razz USA MaryamQ USA , NLSP UK , Cotarius probably UK and others as mittekemuis UK Goopypants, Lily  jaine summers UK, Wonka UK and many others

leave the country.....
if this is not a PTO what is it?

Wait i go cry one hour and i come back Razz
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Re: Why Don't We Stop The Pretense

Post by Franckie18 on 2015-01-28, 19:16

Junior wrote:konrad Razz USA MaryamQ USA , NLSP UK , Cotarius probably UK and others as mittekemuis UK Goopypants, Lily jaine summers UK, Wonka UK and many others

Haha really Junior ?

NLSP : real Belgian
Cotarius : real Belgian (eDead)
Mittekemuis : real Belgian?

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Re: Why Don't We Stop The Pretense

Post by Fhaemita Malodorous on 2015-01-28, 19:25

Franckie18 wrote:
Junior wrote:konrad Razz USA MaryamQ USA , NLSP UK , Cotarius probably UK and others as mittekemuis UK Goopypants, Lily  jaine summers UK, Wonka UK and many others

Haha really Junior ?

NLSP : real Belgian
Cotarius : real Belgian (eDead)
Mittekemuis : real Belgian?

Goopypants I think was RL Belgian too?
Not 100% sure though

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Re: Why Don't We Stop The Pretense

Post by MCKitkat on 2015-01-28, 19:27

Franckie18 wrote:
Junior wrote:konrad Razz USA MaryamQ USA , NLSP UK , Cotarius probably UK and others as mittekemuis UK Goopypants, Lily  jaine summers UK, Wonka UK and many others

Haha really Junior ?

NLSP : real Belgian
Cotarius : real Belgian (eDead)
Mittekemuis : real Belgian?

Yep mittekemuis is a real belgian ^^

But still, the eRepublik definition of PTO is not from eRepublik. It is a definition that people agreed too. As with Wikipedia, anyone can change it and if enough people agree with it, then it is a new definition. Thus, it is stupid to say that the eRepublik definition is like this and not like that. It is not a mathematical fact that can't be changed.

1+1 is always going to be 2 but a PTO is always going to change it's definition as people change. It is only a matter of time until people agree on a new version.
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Re: Why Don't We Stop The Pretense

Post by Elynea on 2015-01-28, 20:20

Santiago : we can be a foreigner and be a good ebelgian

To be it's simple : just good actions that's all.

If several players who are in the opposition made good proposals, good debate, you will have no problem of immigration and integration.

Actions are better like words
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Re: Why Don't We Stop The Pretense

Post by G.W.Junior on 2015-01-28, 20:40

Elynea wrote:Santiago : we can be a foreigner and be a good ebelgian

To be it's simple : just good actions that's all.

If several players who are in the opposition made good proposals, good debate, you will have no problem of immigration and integration.

Actions are better like words

Indeed, MariamQ is a good example, and now every one is Real Belgian Rolling Eyes
but you can not denied that this is a real PTO from British influence

Bad or Good PTO is a PTO

They have more citizens than us, and we are under UK influence
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Re: Why Don't We Stop The Pretense

Post by Elynea on 2015-01-28, 21:01

Not for me dear Santiago, if a person is working for ebelgium i will have respect for him or her.

If i see rogue proposals, immigration citizenship accepted without debate... for me this person is bad.

Now what's a Pto : a person who want to take the power in political system right?

What's the goal for the country? What's he doing for this country.

We don't care about the nationality, it's about the personality.
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Re: Why Don't We Stop The Pretense

Post by Konrad Neumann on 2015-01-28, 22:26

Elynea wrote:Not for me dear Santiago, if a person is working for ebelgium i will have respect for him or her.

If i see rogue proposals, immigration citizenship accepted without debate... for me this person is bad.

Now what's a Pto : a person who want to take the power in political system right?

What's the goal for the country? What's he doing for this country.

We don't care about the nationality, it's about the personality.

I 100 percent agree with Elynea.

Let me just say, I love eBE. I think eBE was one of the coolest and most memorable experience in my eLife. eBE is a really close community with a rich tradition. Many of the community were selfless and they commit all of their energy not for personal profit but for the good of the greater community. Elynea Mittekemuis, and MaryamQ are really great. They are indeed role models to me as they willing to spend their real earned cash not on personal gains but for the growth of this community.

These players work their asses off to build a stronger union. This union is based on rules and laws which will benefit the greater community. eBE is not a country of military strength but the eBE was as strong as another stronger countries. eBE was great because of the people and the community. We need more people like MaryamQ, Elynea, Critically, NLSP, etc. This is what makes eBE great. Things were well for a long time because of the rules and laws of this land. It maintained the peace and stability.

What really pains me to see some players who do not follow the democratic process and is willing to destroy this community for personal gains. It also pains me to see players like Bok who sells out the country either because he is too afraid of contestation or too cowardly to call them out of their BS. Don't give me that open minded crap as there has to be a line somewhere. There must be a limit. I would love to welcome GW Junior and company into eBE. There is nothing more I want to do, but they must follow the rules and laws of the land. If they do not like it, do it via the proper democratic process of an election. Those who actively breaks the rules and undermines the enemy are not a legit part of this community. I am sorry but this is pretty standard and common sense. If a RL person be it native or not is in a country, he/she is not excused from the law if he/she disagree with it. I never voted for the RL immigration law but my family abided by it when we became American citizens. Why is this such a hard concept to grasp?

I do apologize if I offended the people I called PTOers but I do not consider their actions as friendly. It is my love of this community that I fought so hard. It pains me to see how this great and once close community is being slowly destroyed by a few cowards who cannot win elections in a fair process.

So like my first post in this thread, I think the community needs to have a consensus towards GW and his gang. Either truly fight him as a PTO as a unit effort, or accept the new order. The time if rhetoric against PTO's but not doing anything needs to end now.
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Re: Why Don't We Stop The Pretense

Post by Fhaemita Malodorous on 2015-01-28, 22:46

Konrad Neumann wrote:Let me just say, I love eBE.  I think eBE was one of the coolest and most memorable experience in my eLife.  eBE is a really close community with a rich tradition.  Many of the community were selfless and they commit all of their energy not for personal profit but for the good of the greater community.  Elynea Mittekemuis, and MaryamQ are really great.  They are indeed role models to me as they willing to spend their real earned cash not on personal gains but for the growth of this community.

These players work their asses off to build a stronger union.  This union is based on rules and laws which will benefit the greater community.  eBE is not a country of military strength but the eBE was  as strong as another stronger countries.  eBE was great because of the people and the community.  We need more people like MaryamQ, Elynea, Critically, NLSP, etc.  This is what makes eBE great.  Things were well for a long time because of the rules and laws of this land.  It maintained the peace and stability.

What really pains me to see some players who do not follow the democratic process and is willing to destroy this community for personal gains.  It also pains me to see players like Bok who sells out the country either because he is too afraid of contestation or too cowardly to call them out of their BS.  Don't give me that open minded crap as there has to be a line somewhere.  There must be a limit.  I would love to welcome GW Junior and company into eBE.  There is nothing more I want to do, but they must follow the rules and laws of the land.  If they do not like it, do it via the proper democratic process of an election.  Those who actively breaks the rules and undermines the enemy are not a legit part of this community.  I am sorry but this is pretty standard and common sense.  If a RL person be it native or not is in a country, he/she is not excused from the law if he/she disagree with it.  I never voted for the RL immigration law but my family abided by it when we became American citizens.  Why is this such a hard concept to grasp?

I do apologize if I offended the people I called PTOers but I do not consider their actions as friendly.  It is my love of this community that I fought so hard.  It pains me to see how this great and once close community is being slowly destroyed by a few cowards who cannot win elections in a fair process.  

So like my first post in this thread, I think the community needs to have a consensus towards GW and his gang.  Either truly fight him as a PTO as a unit effort, or accept the new order.  The time if rhetoric against PTO's but not doing anything needs to end now.

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Re: Why Don't We Stop The Pretense

Post by G.W.Junior on 2015-01-28, 23:46

Konrad Neumann wrote: I think the community needs to have a consensus towards GW and his gang.  Either truly fight him as a PTO as a unit effort, or accept the new order.

Accept the new order, i will be a good CP hup
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Re: Why Don't We Stop The Pretense

Post by MaryamQ on 2015-01-29, 04:00

G.W.Junior wrote:
Fhaemita Malodorous wrote:

You are actually wrong, most people like Konrad, Maryam, NLSP, me Cotarius and others (I know I forgot many more).  Why did those people leave?


All Belgian CP  Rolling Eyes

konrad Razz USA MaryamQ USA , NLSP UK , Cotarius probably UK and others as mittekemuis UK Goopypants, Lily  jaine summers UK, Wonka UK and many others

leave the country.....
if this is not a PTO what is it?

Wait i go cry one hour and i come back Razz

For the record (and I published this a while back, for those who don't remember)
American CPs in your list are
Konrad
MaryamQ
Goopypants
Mr.Wonka

UK
Lily Jayne Summers

Belgian
NLSP
Mittekemuis

Cotarius was never CP, refused to accept the nomination when it was offered to him, and he is Dutch.

Not only is your list inaccurate, but it is very selective and does not acknowledge many other CPs, some Belgian (for instance, Olv, Elynea, Jofroi, JdlF, Nohjis, ThomasRed), some of various other nationalities (including Dutch, Hungarian, Luxembourger, that I can think of off the top of my head).

Besides, the point of this whole thing isn't who is RL Belgian, but who is a real eBelgian.  How long do you think eBE would have survived without these immigrants?  We never had a significant fighting force and many of the strong fighters did come from other RL nations.
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Re: Why Don't We Stop The Pretense

Post by Konrad Neumann on 2015-01-29, 05:02

MaryamQ wrote:
G.W.Junior wrote:
Fhaemita Malodorous wrote:

You are actually wrong, most people like Konrad, Maryam, NLSP, me Cotarius and others (I know I forgot many more).  Why did those people leave?


All Belgian CP  Rolling Eyes

konrad Razz USA MaryamQ USA , NLSP UK , Cotarius probably UK and others as mittekemuis UK Goopypants, Lily  jaine summers UK, Wonka UK and many others

leave the country.....
if this is not a PTO what is it?

Wait i go cry one hour and i come back Razz

For the record (and I published this a while back, for those who don't remember)
American CPs in your list are
Konrad
MaryamQ
Goopypants
Mr.Wonka

UK
Lily Jayne Summers

Belgian
NLSP
Mittekemuis

Cotarius was never CP, refused to accept the nomination when it was offered to him, and he is Dutch.

Not only is your list inaccurate, but it is very selective and does not acknowledge many other CPs, some Belgian (for instance, Olv, Elynea, Jofroi, JdlF, Nohjis, ThomasRed), some of various other nationalities (including Dutch, Hungarian, Luxembourger, that I can think of off the top of my head).

Besides, the point of this whole thing isn't who is RL Belgian, but who is a real eBelgian.  How long do you think eBE would have survived without these immigrants?  We never had a significant fighting force and many of the strong fighters did come from other RL nations.

Well said and for the record, I was never a eBE CP. I am a proud 3 term CP for Germany.
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Re: Why Don't We Stop The Pretense

Post by Konrad Neumann on 2015-01-29, 05:06

G.W.Junior wrote:
Konrad Neumann wrote: I think the community needs to have a consensus towards GW and his gang.  Either truly fight him as a PTO as a unit effort, or accept the new order.

Accept the new order, i will be a good CP hup

Shows that you only seek domination and not the democratic process and cooperation. But it seems this is the future of eBE at this point...
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Re: Why Don't We Stop The Pretense

Post by MaryamQ on 2015-01-29, 09:21

Konrad Neumann wrote:
MaryamQ wrote:
For the record (and I published this a while back, for those who don't remember)
American CPs in your list are
Konrad
MaryamQ
Goopypants
Mr.Wonka

UK
Lily Jayne Summers

Belgian
NLSP
Mittekemuis

Cotarius was never CP, refused to accept the nomination when it was offered to him, and he is Dutch.

Not only is your list inaccurate, but it is very selective and does not acknowledge many other CPs, some Belgian (for instance, Olv, Elynea, Jofroi, JdlF, Nohjis, ThomasRed), some of various other nationalities (including Dutch, Hungarian, Luxembourger, that I can think of off the top of my head).

Besides, the point of this whole thing isn't who is RL Belgian, but who is a real eBelgian.  How long do you think eBE would have survived without these immigrants?  We never had a significant fighting force and many of the strong fighters did come from other RL nations.

Well said and for the record, I was never a eBE CP.  I am a proud 3 term CP for Germany.

Oops! I knew that. Strike Konrad from the list.
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Re: Why Don't We Stop The Pretense

Post by Yannis on 2015-01-29, 11:56

I've done mistakes and been wrong several times in that period and I will gladly admit it.

Still, don't put the whole blame of "eBe's decadence" on the people who were questioning the hard stance we practiced. There already were bad evolutions and eBe as a tight-knit community was barely still a reality even before the wipe. It is because the situation was already dire that people like Bok, Boer or I considered compromises, each one of us in different ways. Yes, I couldn't satisfy myself with being hard enemies against those "PTOers" (or whatever you want to call them, as MCK said) with as simple justification that they were bad people. Yes, I've sought to understand them and made some moves towards them. Yes, that flung back to my face. Yes, I should've been contented with people like MQ telling me it has already failed in the past and not think I could be the special snowflake that could make the difference. Yes, I am stubborn. Yes, I'm probably one of the reasons that eBe become something you didn't like. But I'm not taking up on the "You've made us leave", I consider you as responsible eCitizens that can take their decision to leave upon themselves, as I didn't push that Apply For Citizenship button nor for me, nor for you. Yes, active people like you leaving already weakened eBE hit the country hard. Very hard.

So what happens now? Well if one thing is clear it is that what we call the 'PTO' in eBE is of a really different nature than in the traditional sense. There has been no PTO after a good amount of months of quasi-free immigration with very few repressive actions and and the CP is still a forum-friendly active individual. It kind of shows that there is no real takeover plan, they just kind of act like a bunch of first world anarchists without much of a general will. In the meantime forces like BNA, Olympus Belgica and some political parties have been a refuge for semi-active people keeping themselves involved with the country. If anything the "Political balance will shift towards them if we just let them"-argument is questionable. The overall activity in the whole eCountry (pro and anti) has been dropping. eBelgium as a country is half-asleep. Maybe it is the boredom of the country that preserved its current state?
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Re: Why Don't We Stop The Pretense

Post by MCKitkat on 2015-01-29, 14:53

Yannis wrote:[...] Yes, I should've been contented with people like MQ telling me it has already failed in the past and not think I could be the special snowflake that could make the difference. [...]

Don't worry, you will always be my special snowflake ^^

/me pats Yannis on the head
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Re: Why Don't We Stop The Pretense

Post by Yannis on 2015-01-29, 15:08

MCKitkat wrote:
Don't worry, you will always be my special snowflake ^^

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Re: Why Don't We Stop The Pretense

Post by Konrad Neumann on 2015-01-30, 18:14

Yannis wrote:I've done mistakes and been wrong several times in that period and I will gladly admit it.

Still, don't put the whole blame of "eBe's decadence" on the people who were questioning the hard stance we practiced. There already were bad evolutions and eBe as a tight-knit community was barely still a reality even before the wipe. It is because the situation was already dire that people like Bok, Boer or I considered compromises, each one of us in different ways. Yes, I couldn't satisfy myself with being hard enemies against those "PTOers" (or whatever you want to call them, as MCK said) with as simple justification that they were bad people. Yes, I've sought to understand them and made some moves towards them. Yes, that flung back to my face. Yes, I should've been contented with people like MQ telling me it has already failed in the past and not think I could be the special snowflake that could make the difference. Yes, I am stubborn. Yes, I'm probably one of the reasons that eBe become something you didn't like. But I'm not taking up on the "You've made us leave", I consider you as responsible eCitizens that can take their decision to leave upon themselves, as I didn't push that Apply For Citizenship button nor for me, nor for you. Yes, active people like you leaving already weakened eBE hit the country hard. Very hard.

So what happens now? Well if one thing is clear it is that what we call the 'PTO' in eBE is of a really different nature than in the traditional sense. There has been no PTO after a good amount of months of quasi-free immigration with very few repressive actions and and the CP is still a forum-friendly active individual. It kind of shows that there is no real takeover plan, they just kind of act like a bunch of first world anarchists without much of a general will. In the meantime forces like BNA, Olympus Belgica and some political parties have been a refuge for semi-active people keeping themselves involved with the country. If anything the "Political balance will shift towards them if we just let them"-argument is questionable. The overall activity in the whole eCountry (pro and anti) has been dropping. eBelgium as a country is half-asleep. Maybe it is the boredom of the country that preserved its current state?

And this is the very attitude that drove out so many of the people in eBE.  Like I said about Bok.  I think you guys are weak and delusional.  If you think letting people step all over you is open mindedness, then I am glad that I am not open minded.  I have standards and moral limits.  I follow the rules and traditions of this land.  I do not give a rat's ass are they succeeding in the PTO or not but nevertheless, GW Junior and gang are criminals in the law of the land.  They are violating immigration laws and disrupting the democratic process of this land.  You can be an ostrich and stick your head in the sand and call that "open mindedness" or building a "tolerant" community, but I call that defeatism.  I call that moral cowardice.  You can continue to do that if you want and that is your right, but then go and have the spine and destroy/ amend the constitution to allow open borders.  You really cannot have it both ways.  Either grow a spine and fight the PTOers or grow a spine and change all of the laws so GW and gang are fully allowed by law to have open borders.  Grow a spine and why don't you end the pretense now?
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Re: Why Don't We Stop The Pretense

Post by G.W.Junior on 2015-01-30, 21:42

Konrad Neumann wrote:  I call that moral cowardice.  You can continue to do that if you want and that is your right

Bla bla bla Konrad calling all eBE cowards against the SANTIAMINATOR



Homo talks


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Re: Why Don't We Stop The Pretense

Post by Fhaemita Malodorous on 2015-01-30, 22:15



You are just s****, letting in serbs Rolling Eyes
They have PTO'ed at least 5 countries currently and almost all countries in erepublik have been or have been under the threat of serbian PTO and yet you still say you're not the PTO'er.

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Re: Why Don't We Stop The Pretense

Post by G.W.Junior on 2015-01-31, 00:38

Fhaemita Malodorous wrote:

You are just s****, letting in serbs Rolling Eyes
They have PTO'ed at least 5 countries currently and almost all countries in erepublik have been or have been under the threat of serbian PTO and yet you still say you're not the PTO'er.





shame on you
shame on you
shame on you
shame on you
shame on you
shame on you
shame on you
shame on you

i hope i write correctly Razz
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Re: Why Don't We Stop The Pretense

Post by Konrad Neumann on 2015-01-31, 01:13

G.W.Junior wrote:
Fhaemita Malodorous wrote:

You are just s****, letting in serbs Rolling Eyes
They have PTO'ed at least 5 countries currently and almost all countries in erepublik have been or have been under the threat of serbian PTO and yet you still say you're not the PTO'er.





shame on you
shame on you
shame on you
shame on you
shame on you
shame on you
shame on you
shame on you

i hope i write correctly Razz

There are many witness to this. Myself, Fhaemita, Curlybear, Bendem, Nohjis, Odan, Kravenn, and others. I am sure someone will be happy to provide the full logs if desired...
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Re: Why Don't We Stop The Pretense

Post by MaryamQ on 2015-01-31, 19:38

Konrad Neumann wrote:There are many witness to this.  Myself, Fhaemita, Curlybear, Bendem, Nohjis, Odan, Kravenn, and others.  I am sure someone will be happy to provide the full logs if desired...

Just for the record, I have chat open nearly 24/7.  I'm pretty sure I could find the logs, too.  If you're going to tell lies, Junior, at least make them good ones.

I've been thinking a lot about this thread, and think a lot of people are missing the point.  For starters, I don't hate eBelgium, or most eBelgians, even the ones who have contributed to the situation Konrad is talking about.  Bok, for instance, has been one of my favorite eBelgians literally for years, and remains so.  However, Konrad's point is valid.  There is a long history of people such as shadow and many of those who have befriended him who do not make positive contributions, in fact seem deliberately to destroy pretty nearly everything they touch, and who have targeted and sometimes destroyed people who were working hard for this community.  I'm not complaining about how I was treated.  For the most part, I got respect here, and I'm tougher than I look.  I left not so much because I was driven out as because I got tired of hitting my head against a brick wall.  I think I could say the same for several others, people like Nohjis, Mittekemuis, and NLSP, and certainly for Cotarius, who was and is probably the dearest friend I have made in-game, even now that he is eDead.  We are strong people, and we won't be broken, but there are others, like Ward de Bever, who really tried and were abused by the shadow clique from the start, and were more vulnerable than a lot of people want to admit.  We may never know how much real personal hurt has been caused by the toxicity that has been spewed here and often tolerated, and that the community would consider turning a blind eye to that is, in my opinion, unforgivable.  Yes, I did tell Yannis it had been tried to work with these people.  She is not the only one who ever hoped to be the "special snowflake", and I can't blame her for wishing to be.  However, look at what has happened.  Nohjis and Cotarius and I were among the first members of HOPE, by personal invitation of A Vegan.  What he told us he was dreaming for that party, for our community, was twisted and perverted by those who eventually claimed it and pretended to be acting in his name.   Several of us tried working within the "eCommunist" community at various times, and even gave of our own time and resources to help, and they turned around and bit us.  Ely and I both included people like Junior in our governments, and again, had our hands bitten for our efforts.  Konrad himself, as only one example, has been continually personally insulted about things that had nothing to do with his actions in game.  We have seen racist, homophobic, sexist and ageist comments over and over again, things that may annoy people for a short time, but then they seem to conveniently forget.  I know this is a small community, and there is not much left.  If you want to let in people who break the laws, fine; change the laws to allow it, but for goodness sake, try to maintain some minimal standards of decency.  If you don't, you deserve what happens.

A fable wrote: "You fool!" croaked the frog, "Now we shall both die! Why on earth did you do that?"

The scorpion shrugged, and did a little jig on the drownings frog's back.

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Re: Why Don't We Stop The Pretense

Post by Elynea on 2015-01-31, 22:13

Santiago : if several person like christijan, others... i can make a list made good things, participate here and not to put links to have golds to change their name, if they didn't made rogue proposals, we would have another view.

But every month, nothing is moving. How many citizens left because this bad ambiance? How much new players stopped the game for this same reason. So a lot.

Sometimes we have not a respect, i think about insults for Maryam so kind (because she made the interview avec christijan) after that. I will never do it.

You can't change a person, if she doesn't want to see another opinion.

We try to accept, we try to make newspaper with good debates and always the same, comments no constructive, always the same speach.

And in this time they are making propaganda, formers are bad... blabla, but they worked hard to have this country.

You said always wiped, but sometimes, ask you this question.
If we have a government who support Asteria for example, why will think our good friends who are not for?

Now, not a lot of person believe for a good move. If i wasn't not patient, with this kind of mentality i will be in efrance now. I stay for the country.
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Re: Why Don't We Stop The Pretense

Post by tommot on 2015-01-31, 22:45

Konrad Neumann wrote:And this is the very attitude that drove out so many of the people in eBE.  Like I said about Bok.  I think you guys are weak and delusional.  If you think letting people step all over you is open mindedness, then I am glad that I am not open minded.  I have standards and moral limits.  I follow the rules and traditions of this land.  I do not give a rat's ass are they succeeding in the PTO or not but nevertheless, GW Junior and gang are criminals in the law of the land.  They are violating immigration laws and disrupting the democratic process of this land.  You can be an ostrich and stick your head in the sand and call that "open mindedness" or building a "tolerant" community, but I call that defeatism.  I call that moral cowardice.  You can continue to do that if you want and that is your right, but then go and have the spine and destroy/ amend the constitution to allow open borders.  You really cannot have it both ways.  Either grow a spine and fight the PTOers or grow a spine and change all of the laws so GW and gang are fully allowed by law to have open borders.  Grow a spine and why don't you end the pretense now?
Why do i get the feeling this is attacking me personally for being tolerant. confused

What's with you grimm reaper attitude lately?
Just because we do it differently then you like it to be, doesn't mean we are weak, delusional nor defeatists and it definitely doesn't mean we have no spine. Neutral

Did you look at the current law???
No you didn't!
If you did you would see that it's already open border. Rolling Eyes

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Re: Why Don't We Stop The Pretense

Post by Konrad Neumann on 2015-01-31, 23:25

tommot wrote:
Konrad Neumann wrote:And this is the very attitude that drove out so many of the people in eBE.  Like I said about Bok.  I think you guys are weak and delusional.  If you think letting people step all over you is open mindedness, then I am glad that I am not open minded.  I have standards and moral limits.  I follow the rules and traditions of this land.  I do not give a rat's ass are they succeeding in the PTO or not but nevertheless, GW Junior and gang are criminals in the law of the land.  They are violating immigration laws and disrupting the democratic process of this land.  You can be an ostrich and stick your head in the sand and call that "open mindedness" or building a "tolerant" community, but I call that defeatism.  I call that moral cowardice.  You can continue to do that if you want and that is your right, but then go and have the spine and destroy/ amend the constitution to allow open borders.  You really cannot have it both ways.  Either grow a spine and fight the PTOers or grow a spine and change all of the laws so GW and gang are fully allowed by law to have open borders.  Grow a spine and why don't you end the pretense now?
Why do i get the feeling this is attacking me personally for being tolerant.  confused

What's with you grimm reaper attitude lately?
Just because we do it differently then you like it to be, doesn't mean we are weak, delusional nor defeatists and it definitely doesn't mean we have no spine. Neutral

Did you look at the current law???
No you didn't!
If you did you would see that it's already open border. Rolling Eyes

First, are you lazy or just incompetent? This thread was started on the 28th and it took you 3 days for you to reply. Good job CP. If you cannot be on IRC everyday and be active then do not be a CP. If you do not like confrontation, then do not be CP. I think the sooner you are put out of your misery, the better. It is like pulling teeth watching this administration at work.

It is not about doing things differently but this is a theme equating open mindedness with people getting away with wrong doing is delusional, cowardice, and outright stupidity. You have the nerve to take a piss on me but not brave enough to take a piss at those who are PTOing and destroying the country. You sir do not deserve the title of country president. Your weak leadership F up the congress election and now you dare to lecture me about Grimm Reaper attitude. Take responsibility and grow a spine.

As to your claim of the law, where is it? Where is open borders? As per the rule book, http://www.erepbelgium.com/t7026-immigration-law there is still a law that requires the immigration officer to review things. There is a immigration section in the congress ran by Zangetsu. Nothing in the rule book that repeals the immigration law or states there is open borders etc. I do not see much in the voting and debating area about open borders as well...
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Re: Why Don't We Stop The Pretense

Post by Elynea on 2015-01-31, 23:54

@konrad

keep calm he had one accident Konrad, he needs to recover now.

We can understand that, i'm pretty sure you didn't know that.

@about the immigration and for Santiago or persons who are on favor.

For the immigration, i was waiting a change from  the group who gave nationalities so easier.

In this case, i blame admins who are not able to remove multis done in cyberphone but i hope they will change that.
Persons who have few connections in few houses (difficult to say something about that).
Gamers who make few accounts in a country where you have 97 active citizens are not playing this game with fair-play and don't deserve any respect.

If we will have 1000 citizens we will not have this debate in this moment.

Sure i'm for to open doors to others, but we can't do that !

Every month when we have congress, other  serbians are coming, other persons who are in the country since (wait) maybe few days, are on the elections list. We don't know them, but they have a power of decision.

ebelgium is not a tool for a group of players who want to make what they want... Well why not give the money of the country to a private MU ? Why not remove governmental newspapers and make propaganda articles for Asteria.

And you ask why we must be wiped ? Do you really think it's funny to do that ? NO

We want to play in a nice country, with a good ambiance. The reputation of ebelgium now ? The country of Ptoers... it's not funny.


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Re: Why Don't We Stop The Pretense

Post by tommot on 2015-02-01, 01:11

Konrad Neumann wrote:First, are you lazy or just incompetent?  This thread was started on the 28th and it took you 3 days for you to reply.  Good job CP.  If you cannot be on IRC everyday and be active then do not be a CP.  If you do not like confrontation, then do not be CP.  I think the sooner you are put out of your misery, the better.  It is like pulling teeth watching this administration at work.  

It is not about doing things differently but this is a theme equating open mindedness with people getting away with wrong doing is delusional, cowardice, and outright stupidity.  You have the nerve to take a piss on me  but not brave enough to take a piss at those who are PTOing and destroying the country.  You sir do not deserve the title of country president.  Your weak leadership F up the congress election and now you dare to lecture me about Grimm Reaper attitude.  Take responsibility and grow a spine.

As  to your claim of the law, where is it?  Where is open borders?  As per the rule book, http://www.erepbelgium.com/t7026-immigration-law there is still a law that requires the immigration officer to review things.  There is a immigration section in the congress ran by Zangetsu.  Nothing in the rule book that repeals the immigration law or states there is open borders etc.  I do not see much in the voting and debating area about open borders as well...
Very Happy lol Razz you are a little bit angry? Very Happy
I guess you have a problem with someone doing things differently than you do. If it wasn't a problem for you, you wouldn't be raging like a mad dog right now.

I did exactly what i said i would do! I already explained to you that i am not responsible for every single political party in Belgium. They are the ones who failed to do their job in organizing the congress election.

If you wanted things do be done your way, than you should be running for CP.

immigration law wrote:All immigration requests shall be reviewed by an Immigration Officer, to be appointed by vote of Congress, and the Minister of National Security, to be appointed by the current President of eBelgium. The Immigration Officer shall be appointed for a term of three months and may serve for an unlimited number of consecutive terms.

A thread shall be opened in the immigration subforum for each request. Congress members may comment about these requests and vouch for any potential citizens who are known to them. Within 48 hours, sooner if they feel they have sufficient information, the IO and MoNS will post their advice to accept or reject the request. If the advice is to reject, a reason will be given.

According to game mechanics, Congress members may accept any request. However, on the 24th of each month, the IO shall make a report, published by the government, showing who made requests, the advice of the IO and MoNS, and, if the citizenship was given, who gave it and from what party. This report should not include further comment, positive or negative, about these cases.
Does it say anywhere that a congress member HAS to follow the ADVICE of the immigration officer? NO
There is no obligation to any border policy at all!

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Re: Why Don't We Stop The Pretense

Post by G.W.Junior on 2015-02-01, 01:16

Konrad Neumann wrote:

KN to Tommot - First, are you lazy or just incompetent?  
Homo Talks

KN - Tommot-  This thread was started on the 28th and it took you 3 days for you to reply.

Rolling Eyes this s*** you means? who look this ? i come here for see your pig face

KN to Tommot -  Good job CP.  If you cannot be on IRC everyday

For what? only ghost players there, and few foreigners you think we we need your opinion?



KN - to Tommot -  bla bla @KN delusional, cowardice, and outright stupidity.  You have the nerve to take a piss on me  but not brave enough to take a piss at those who are PTOing and destroying the country.

More 48 hours and you out from Honorary Citizen, i just wait my Citizen status back for put you out with the BDP Majority


KN to Tommot -  You sir do not deserve the title of country president.

Go F** yourself


KN to Tommot - Your weak leadership F up the congress election

Do you know the game mechanism? and if yes why you not use your useful experience for warning us


enjoy your last 2 days here Razz
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Re: Why Don't We Stop The Pretense

Post by Konrad Neumann on 2015-02-01, 02:21

tommot wrote:
Konrad Neumann wrote:First, are you lazy or just incompetent?  This thread was started on the 28th and it took you 3 days for you to reply.  Good job CP.  If you cannot be on IRC everyday and be active then do not be a CP.  If you do not like confrontation, then do not be CP.  I think the sooner you are put out of your misery, the better.  It is like pulling teeth watching this administration at work.  

It is not about doing things differently but this is a theme equating open mindedness with people getting away with wrong doing is delusional, cowardice, and outright stupidity.  You have the nerve to take a piss on me  but not brave enough to take a piss at those who are PTOing and destroying the country.  You sir do not deserve the title of country president.  Your weak leadership F up the congress election and now you dare to lecture me about Grimm Reaper attitude.  Take responsibility and grow a spine.

As  to your claim of the law, where is it?  Where is open borders?  As per the rule book, http://www.erepbelgium.com/t7026-immigration-law there is still a law that requires the immigration officer to review things.  There is a immigration section in the congress ran by Zangetsu.  Nothing in the rule book that repeals the immigration law or states there is open borders etc.  I do not see much in the voting and debating area about open borders as well...
Very Happy lol Razz you are a little bit angry? Very Happy
I guess you have a problem with someone doing things differently than you do. If it wasn't a problem for you, you wouldn't be raging like a mad dog right now.

I did exactly what i said i would do! I already explained to you that i am not responsible for every single political party in Belgium. They are the ones who failed to do their job in organizing the congress election.

If you wanted things do be done your way, than you should be running for CP.

immigration law wrote:All immigration requests shall be reviewed by an Immigration Officer, to be appointed by vote of Congress, and the Minister of National Security, to be appointed by the current President of eBelgium. The Immigration Officer shall be appointed for a term of three months and may serve for an unlimited number of consecutive terms.

A thread shall be opened in the immigration subforum for each request. Congress members may comment about these requests and vouch for any potential citizens who are known to them. Within 48 hours, sooner if they feel they have sufficient information, the IO and MoNS will post their advice to accept or reject the request. If the advice is to reject, a reason will be given.

According to game mechanics, Congress members may accept any request. However, on the 24th of each month, the IO shall make a report, published by the government, showing who made requests, the advice of the IO and MoNS, and, if the citizenship was given, who gave it and from what party. This report should not include further comment, positive or negative, about these cases.
Does it say anywhere that a congress member HAS to follow the ADVICE of the immigration officer? NO
There is no obligation to any border policy at all!

I am just calling  you out on your lack of leadership. From my perspective, you are unfit for power and you are an ineffective and inactive president.  You do not take responsibility for your lack of action and management skills.  You are not active for most of the term.  You do not have the decency to resign when you are not up for whatever RL or other reasons.  The end you are just a weak to be a leader.  You did not manage your country.  Announcing the TW with Cuba is not the same as managing and dealing with the domestic congressional issues.  It is clear that you mismanaged this TW as no one in eBE knew what happened. If you are in a more active and serious country, they will have your head by now with a full impeachment.  You are a follower and not a leader.  

If you think I was raging, I was not.  I might be blunt but I do not BS you with fluffy words.  You get honesty with me.  I tell it what it is.  At times you need tough love and that is what you will get.  If I offended you, I do apologize as my intent was not to hurt you personally.

As to the law, it does not saw there is open borders.  It only states game mechanics but not the law and will of the congress and the law.  It clearly does not say eBE community allows open borders.  The term advice does not mean it is optional.  Courts makes legal recommendations, advices, and opinions but that does not mean it is optional.  For what is the point of an IO if it does nothing.  Why waste time with a stupid and useless office as you put it.  This has to be the first country that has an immigration office that according the their CP serves no function.  


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Re: Why Don't We Stop The Pretense

Post by Konrad Neumann on 2015-02-01, 02:37

G.W.Junior wrote:

More 48 hours and you out from Honorary Citizen, i just wait my Citizen status back for put you out with the BDP Majority

Do you know the game mechanism? and if yes why you not use your useful experience for warning us


enjoy your last 2 days here Razz

You assumes that I care. In addition, it clearly proves my point. You are a PTOer. As soon as you think you have the upper hand, you will begin to purge all those who are a threat to you. This shows you only seek political domination. You use your "numbers", not percentage and true representation of the eBE community, to push quickly bills against the will of the community. We will see how long this will last. You do not have legitimacy and your political pandering is a joke. I am curious will the admins comply with you...
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Re: Why Don't We Stop The Pretense

Post by G.W.Junior on 2015-02-01, 11:47

Konrad Neumann wrote:


 I am curious will the admins comply with you...

Why? you are asking here more democracy! why you will be sad on admins for execute law's from Congress Members who elected by votes

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Re: Why Don't We Stop The Pretense

Post by Yannis on 2015-02-01, 12:51

Junior I advise you to shut up if you don't have anything to say that adds to the discussion. You are just asking for sanctions at this point and that is what you will get if you continue to insult people like a 12 year old.

Konrad Neumann wrote:

And this is the very attitude that drove out so many of the people in eBE.  Like I said about Bok.  I think you guys are weak and delusional.  If you think letting people step all over you is open mindedness, then I am glad that I am not open minded.  I have standards and moral limits.  I follow the rules and traditions of this land.  I do not give a rat's ass are they succeeding in the PTO or not but nevertheless, GW Junior and gang are criminals in the law of the land.  They are violating immigration laws and disrupting the democratic process of this land.  You can be an ostrich and stick your head in the sand and call that "open mindedness" or building a "tolerant" community, but I call that defeatism.  I call that moral cowardice.  You can continue to do that if you want and that is your right, but then go and have the spine and destroy/ amend the constitution to allow open borders.  You really cannot have it both ways.  Either grow a spine and fight the PTOers or grow a spine and change all of the laws so GW and gang are fully allowed by law to have open borders.  Grow a spine and why don't you end the pretense now?

Fun fact: ostriches don't actually bury their head in the sand. As for the rest, you're mostly attacking a straw man. Nobody dropped the word "open-mindedness", and I don't think that's the relevant issue. I don't think there is any disagreement on whether forum laws should be followed from neither Bok nor I. The problem is: "How the hell do you enforce those?".

It is well known that we have very few tools to do so. When it comes to combating a standard PTO-attempt the prolonged wipe is a popular countermeasure that worked well in the past. Where I have my reserves is that those PTO attempts were driven by a regulated voting group that were organized and had a clear goal in mind. Wiping the country was then a good solution that allowed to freeze Immigration which interrupted those PTOers in their plans until any reasonable prospect of achievement is destroyed and they start leaving the country. All good and well, but the individuals we have here don't exactly fit that same mold of "PTO". They are much less likely to leave, they have been here for long already. On the other hand a wipe could harm the activity of this already weak country. This is in fact exactly what happened last time. I have no problem with taking measures, but I want to get a clear rationale with it:

* What are the desired effects of the measure?
* How will the measure achieve those effects?
* What are the costs/disadvantages of the measure?
* Would the projected effects be more worth than the costs?

If you think you can bring such measure, wipe or not, please go ahead and push it through. I had my reserves towards previous wipe because I saw its cost and didn't get how we projected that would help our cause. We just assumed the same people who have been around for more than 1 or 2 years and through periods of eBelgian inactivity will just magically want to leave if the country kept itself wiped long enough. I don't think I have to be spineless to reason that way nor does it show that I like to swim in my own diarrhea. You can still express nuance towards an unclear solution without feeling the need to defend the stance that "things are good the way they are now". If there were tools implemented in eRepublik that would help in enforcing Congress-voted rules, trust me that I would be the first to use them.

@MQ: It's a relevant critique of the past ways of handling repetitive bullying and insults. I'm personally glad shadow is now eDead, but I don't know if admins have clear guidelines of what is punished with which sanctions. We could encourage strict mods that directly give out warnings instead of looking over the first few 'accidental' insults. There's still room for constructive discussions about this, I don't share the opinion that eBe is doomed to overlook all bullying flown at its' members. The only concern that some people have is that banned people should always have a way towards redemption, which is not an unreasonable desire. I don't think it's anybody's will but the bullies' that the bullied suffer, even if the struggle for balance can leave the victims feel unprotected (and that is also something we should seek to avoid).
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Re: Why Don't We Stop The Pretense

Post by SX80 on 2015-02-01, 14:26

@Konrad: your blunt words do often come over as aggressive
@Yannis: I agree, during the wipe our "good" people were leaving faster than the people that are not following community laws

I do think the latter is a better description than PTO. They came in as a small vocal group, rejecting everything we had build up, and demanding to do things their way. Everyone not agreeing with them is against them. So of course you have hostility. They actively attacked individuals, parties, government, legislation, the forum, the community at large. They refuse to accept democratic results, and when given control they simply enforce their will, shouting it is the will of the majority. They omit to say, it is the will of the majority of their small inner circle, and they didn't even bother to check with the other citizens.

So Konrad, you want to accuse us of not having the balls to go into full shut-down and wipe this country for good? Well, sorry to bring this to you, but if you do that, you give them exactly what they want. You kill the country and kill the community.

I haven't seen any concrete objective from them other than destroy what we have. And they probably have fun doing it. So you can feed them attention, they like it. Or you can ignore them.
But you can't kick them out (no in-game mechanics), you can't shut them up (and they are very vocal, at least some of them). Any "measure" you take (like forum sanctions) is just feeding their propaganda. Then you have the eRep reality of a huge amount of new players leaving. Younger players miss the context to be able to fairly judge what is going on. So they may side with the wrong team. Secondly, when trapped between two opposing groups they will leave even sooner, so it is again in their advantage to keep a hostile environment.

The worst part for me is that we all know this, but they still manage to have a quite big amount of citizens to follow their empty accusations. Why do these citizens keep following and supporting them? How many of them are multis, and how many are real individuals? For multis we are again depending on erep to filter them out. For the others, how can we convince them we aren't the bad guys?

I've been out of congress and out of government for some time now, and I have to say I know less to nothing about on-going gov plans. I mostly find out after I supported the wrong RW, or fought in the wrong battle. So communication is really poor. If we want to fight this, I think it has to be done on communication, and not with secret plans like the last cuba story or with another wipe.
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Re: Why Don't We Stop The Pretense

Post by G.W.Junior on 2015-02-01, 14:58

Yannis wrote:Junior I advise you to shut up if you don't have anything to say that adds to the discussion. You are just asking for sanctions at this point and that is what you will get if you continue to insult people like a 12 year old.


Can you post the insults? stop close your ayes for Konard Neuman
he insult every one here and i read only - calm please calm

LOL

here list of insults from Tourist to Tommot and me

Cowards
Incompetents
Criminals
lazy
GW Gang

and few others Suspect

Homo style




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Re: Why Don't We Stop The Pretense

Post by Yannis on 2015-02-01, 15:38

G.W.Junior wrote:
Can you post the insults? stop close your ayes for Konard Neuman
he insult every one here and i read only - calm  please calm

LOL

here list of insults from Tourist to Tommot and me

Cowards
Incompetents
Criminals
lazy
GW Gang

and few others Suspect

Homo style

He has legit criticism on the current state of affairs and condemns a behaviour that he describes in detail that he sees as negative. His word use is aggressive but it a long stretch compared to your unjustified insulting and targeting his sexual preferences which are his own and ought to be respected.

Moreover, even if he had been insulting in the same way you did, it doesn't justify in any way your own insults. That is childish morality unfit for a serious debate like this one. So up your level or stay silent.
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Re: Why Don't We Stop The Pretense

Post by G.W.Junior on 2015-02-01, 15:58

Is always same the HOMO reason for win the debate, if you call me Heterosexual, i have to start complain and cry ?

If i call you woman and you are one! what is the problem?

You free to call me "my men" or Men Style" if you want, i not will start cry

Now if you are telling us "he has legit criticism against Tommot"

let introduce the new words available for forum moderators

Coward and others
Suspect
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Re: Why Don't We Stop The Pretense

Post by Konrad Neumann on 2015-02-01, 16:05

Yannis wrote:Junior I advise you to shut up if you don't have anything to say that adds to the discussion. You are just asking for sanctions at this point and that is what you will get if you continue to insult people like a 12 year old.

Konrad Neumann wrote:

And this is the very attitude that drove out so many of the people in eBE.  Like I said about Bok.  I think you guys are weak and delusional.  If you think letting people step all over you is open mindedness, then I am glad that I am not open minded.  I have standards and moral limits.  I follow the rules and traditions of this land.  I do not give a rat's ass are they succeeding in the PTO or not but nevertheless, GW Junior and gang are criminals in the law of the land.  They are violating immigration laws and disrupting the democratic process of this land.  You can be an ostrich and stick your head in the sand and call that "open mindedness" or building a "tolerant" community, but I call that defeatism.  I call that moral cowardice.  You can continue to do that if you want and that is your right, but then go and have the spine and destroy/ amend the constitution to allow open borders.  You really cannot have it both ways.  Either grow a spine and fight the PTOers or grow a spine and change all of the laws so GW and gang are fully allowed by law to have open borders.  Grow a spine and why don't you end the pretense now?

Fun fact: ostriches don't actually bury their head in the sand. As for the rest, you're mostly attacking a straw man. Nobody dropped the word "open-mindedness", and I don't think that's the relevant issue. I don't think there is any disagreement on whether forum laws should be followed from neither Bok nor I. The problem is: "How the hell do you enforce those?".

It is well known that we have very few tools to do so. When it comes to combating a standard PTO-attempt the prolonged wipe is a popular countermeasure that worked well in the past. Where I have my reserves is that those PTO attempts were driven by a regulated voting group that were organized and had a clear goal in mind. Wiping the country was then a good solution that allowed to freeze Immigration which interrupted those PTOers in their plans until any reasonable prospect of achievement is destroyed and they start leaving the country. All good and well, but the individuals we have here don't exactly fit that same mold of "PTO". They are much less likely to leave, they have been here for long already. On the other hand a wipe could harm the activity of this already weak country. This is in fact exactly what happened last time. I have no problem with taking measures, but I want to get a clear rationale with it:

* What are the desired effects of the measure?
* How will the measure achieve those effects?
* What are the costs/disadvantages of the measure?
* Would the projected effects be more worth than the costs?

If you think you can bring such measure, wipe or not, please go ahead and push it through. I had my reserves towards previous wipe because I saw its cost and didn't get how we projected that would help our cause. We just assumed the same people who have been around for more than 1 or 2 years and through periods of eBelgian inactivity will just magically want to leave if  the country kept itself wiped long enough. I don't think I have to be spineless to reason that way nor does it show that I like to swim in my own diarrhea. You can still express nuance towards an unclear solution without feeling the need to defend the stance that "things are good the way they are now". If there were tools implemented in eRepublik that would help in enforcing Congress-voted rules, trust me that I would be the first to use them.

@MQ: It's a relevant critique of the past ways of handling repetitive bullying and insults. I'm personally glad shadow is now eDead, but I don't know if admins have clear guidelines of what is punished with which sanctions. We could encourage strict mods that directly give out warnings instead of looking over the first few 'accidental' insults. There's still room for constructive discussions about this, I don't share the opinion that eBe is doomed to overlook all bullying flown at its' members. The only concern that some people have is that banned people should always have a way towards redemption, which is not an unreasonable desire. I don't think it's anybody's will but the bullies' that the bullied suffer, even if the struggle for balance can leave the victims feel unprotected (and that is also something we should seek to avoid).

First: The ostrich analogy is a common one. Ostrich do put their head in the sand after they eat to ease their digestion. If you want a different analogy, you can have it. You guys are like bloody doormats the PTOers to step all over you. Is that better?

You complain about enforcement and quantitative aspect of the PTO issue. You and Bok like to play with quantitative research to justify inaction but the biggest problem with eBE is the lack of unity of the legitimate community. eBE is too fearful. They lack the pragmatism and the tolerance to take pain and sacrifice. This is best describe by SX80's post.

SX80 wrote:@Konrad:
So Konrad, you want to accuse us of not having the balls to go into full shut-down and wipe this country for good? Well, sorry to bring this to you, but if you do that, you give them exactly what they want. You kill the country and kill the community.

I haven't seen any concrete objective from them other than destroy what we have. And they probably have fun doing it. So you can feed them attention, they like it. Or you can ignore them.
But you can't kick them out (no in-game mechanics), you can't shut them up (and they are very vocal, at least some of them). Any "measure" you take (like forum sanctions) is just feeding their propaganda. Then you have the eRep reality of a huge amount of new players leaving. Younger players miss the context to be able to fairly judge what is going on. So they may side with the wrong team. Secondly, when trapped between two opposing groups they will leave even sooner, so it is again in their advantage to keep a hostile environment.


I admire the Danes and the Norwegians. These small countries knows what they need to do. They wipe themselves when it is needed. They are resilient and united. Yannis complained about the lack of resources but their population is about the same as eBE. I think eDenmark has less people. You guys blew it in the past with inaction and disunity. In Norway, the immigration process is tough. The IO and congress will look into each applicant. Each applicant who was not accepted legally will have that congressman and illegal immigrant blacklisted. New applicant cannot assume political post until 3 months of being in the country. If they apply for congress, each party will send their members to be blockers. That is unity. That is something eBE should of done in the past.

When things are out of control now, eBE should be more like Denmark. When the government loss control, they do the right thing and go for a wipe. For a real union with an other country. The Danish community is strong and vibrant. Germank is doing well. The Danes did not lose their community in Germark. They still have their own community but also they gained a new community and friends in the form of Germany. How many years was Denmark wipe? They are still rely on Germany a lot. The PTO is like a cancer. If you kill it early on, it is less painful. The longer you wait, the more painful and drastic the operation will require. It will also decrease the chances of success. eBE wasted too much time on BS open mindedness and fears. It is you who play into the wishes and desires of the PTOers as the PTOer's only desire is to obtain power. Creating division and inaction of the legit community only help their cause.

As to the quantitative and research part of your statement. First, we the old guards was never given the real chance to do our policy. Every time we do something we have to fight the PTOers and the new, "open minded" and the fearful players. eBE lacks unity and any real policy will not work. You all need to get out of the rut of being so fearful. I also urge you to learn what open minded really is. It is not being a doormat and letting hostile and abusive people to step and walk all over you. Second, eBE now has ran out of time. eBE is in crisis point. Tommot has no real command of his presidency and congress is not representative of the demographic and political vote of the people. Tommot lost control. It is the time to act and not discuss a "research" action plan. This is not some university research class and you are not doing a social research here.

I will say that eBE is not willing to take any pain and endurance. They are unwilling to make sacrifices. In many ways, they believe as spoiled children. They expect a solution to be instant and painless. This is not how it works. This is why I have great respect for the Danes and Norwegians. These people do deserve respect for they truly understand what a strong community is. They are united and they can get things done. This fear and "open mindedness" in eBe is the problem. It only creates inaction and the lack of unity will never get this country out of being PTOed.

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Re: Why Don't We Stop The Pretense

Post by MaryamQ on 2015-02-01, 22:32

Just one thing to say. Bravo to Yannis and SX80 for making rational responses to this heated argument.

I still think Konrad has a point, although he knows I'm not always keen on the way he makes it. However, we have left, it is your community to deal with. I'm sorry about that. It was once a very nice community, and you have been around long enough to remember it. Sure, there was squabbling, as in any extended family group, but we always came together in the end. It is a shame that people who apparently get their kicks from hurting and destroying have been able to change that. Many of us will always be eBelgian in our hearts, but we have moved on, and were welcomed elsewhere. If you ever decide you've had enough, I think we can assure you of finding a welcome, too.
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Re: Why Don't We Stop The Pretense

Post by MCKitkat on 2015-02-03, 01:27

MaryamQ wrote:Just one thing to say.  Bravo to Yannis and SX80 for making rational responses to this heated argument.  

I still think Konrad has a point, although he knows I'm not always keen on the way he makes it.  However, we have left, it is your community to deal with.  I'm sorry about that.  It was once a very nice community, and you have been around long enough to remember it.  Sure, there was squabbling, as in any extended family group, but we always came together in the end.  It is a shame that people who apparently get their kicks from hurting and destroying have been able to change that.  Many of us will always be eBelgian in our hearts, but we have moved on, and were welcomed elsewhere.  If you ever decide you've had enough, I think we can assure you of finding a welcome, too.


I agree, that our community is very hard to deal with. Looking at the forum and the IRC now really makes me sad, because I still remember my beginning days (around 2012/2013) where I was welcomed with open arms on the forum and on IRC. I remember the times where I spent more time on IRC with the Community then in the actual game. But now, it is just a shadow of it's former self. True, I have missed people like Vegan and others who I'm sure I would have loved to talk to and take part in their stuff, but when I joined I still had the pleasure to meet people like Nohjis, MaryamQ, NLSP and co. And while a lot have moved of, they were still there to help. Giving advice and helping you out every way they could, even though they weren't eBelgians ingame. They are eBelgians at heart. During my time as a two-clicker these past months, I did not spent a single day thinking about eRepublik, about the struggle and the endless discussions. It was an amazing time, which is very sad, because this was a game where I spent entire days with, and all of the sudden, it meant nothing. Sure, there were still people left who were doing what they could and who needed help but seriously, I'd rather play videogames then reading the bullcrap of people like Junior, Shadow and co. At least there, I don't have to worry about anything.

eBelgium is a strange place, we lack the unity that made Denmark and Norway such great anti PTO examples, and sadly instead of getting together after such discussions as these, we end up splitting each other even more apart.

I don't know what happened during these past months that made this forum "die" but this was the only place we had "control" over, where we could have sensible discussions, ban haters and play as the community we always wanted to have. Sure, ingame, we still had the idiots, but at least here we had a safe heaven with rules, where a community built up a system that helped everyone. Now, the PTO'er would claim that we wouldn't let them enter, but to be honest, f*** these dudes. If you want to take part in a discussion and be part of this community then you do have to abide to the rules and well, not be an asshole, and with asshole, I mean a total asshole. It ain't fun what you did here, spreading toxic all over the place. It made us abandon this safe heaven.

What is my opinion to a possible solution: Wipe, and let rebuild a community here on the forums. Yes, we will lose people, especially baby-boomers but hell, there will always be some gems who will stick and develop like Franckie18 and others. If there is complaining that we are elitist, well then so be it. This forum was always open to everyone who accepted the rules, and the rules were pretty easy. We had our disagreements on certain topics, but we never banned each other because of that. We banned because of unnecessary insults and other stuff like that.

Let's rebuild a forum community, where we help and support each other, because quite honestly, we can build a system to handle this. I don't think we need a country to exist as a community. It's the community that is important, not the fact that we have 3 provinces.


Last edited by MCKitkat on 2015-02-03, 14:35; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Checked for mistakes)
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Re: Why Don't We Stop The Pretense

Post by Konrad Neumann on 2015-02-03, 03:04

MCKitkat wrote:
MaryamQ wrote:Just one thing to say.  Bravo to Yannis and SX80 for making rational responses to this heated argument.  

I still think Konrad has a point, although he knows I'm not always keen on the way he makes it.  However, we have left, it is your community to deal with.  I'm sorry about that.  It was once a very nice community, and you have been around long enough to remember it.  Sure, there was squabbling, as in any extended family group, but we always came together in the end.  It is a shame that people who apparently get their kicks from hurting and destroying have been able to change that.  Many of us will always be eBelgian in our hearts, but we have moved on, and were welcomed elsewhere.  If you ever decide you've had enough, I think we can assure you of finding a welcome, too.


I agree, that our community is very hard to deal with. Looking at the forum and the IRC now really makes me sad, because I still remember my beginning days (around 2012/2013) where I was welcomed with open arms on the forum and on IRC. I remember the times where I spent more time on IRC with the Community then in the actual game. But now, it is just a shadow of it's former self. True, I have missed people like Vegan and others who I'm sure I would have loved to talk to and take part in their stuff, but when I joined I still had the pleasure to meet people like Nohjis, MaryamQ, NLSP and co. And while a lot have moved of, they were still there to help. Giving advice and helping you out every way they could, even though they weren't eBelgians ingame. They are eBelgians at heart. During my time as a two-clicker these past months, I did not spent a single day thinking about eRepublik, about the struggle and the endless discussions. It was an amazing time, which is very sad, because this was a game where I spent entire days with, and all of the sudden, it meant nothing. Sure, there were still people left who were doing what they could and who needed help but seriously, I'd rather play videogames then reading the bullcrap of people like Junior, Shadow and co. At least there, I don't have to worry about anything.

eBelgium is a strange place, we lack the unity that made Denmark and Norway such great anti PTO examples, and sadly instead of getting together after such discussions as these, we end up splitting each other even more apart.

I don't know what happened during these past motnhs that made this forum "die" but this was the only place we had "control", where we could have sensible discussions, ban haters and play as the community we always wanted to have. Sure, ingame, we still had the idiots, but at least here we had a safe heaven with rules, where a community built up a system that helped everyone. Now, the PTO'er would claim that we wouldn't let them enter, but to be honest, f*** these dudes. If you want to take part in a discussion and be part of this community then you do have to abide to the rules and well, not be an asshole, and with asshole, I mean a total asshole. It ain't fun what you did here, spreading toxic all over the place. It made us abandon this save heaven.

What is my opinion to a possible solution: Whipe, and let rebuild a community here on the forums. Yes, we will lose people, especially baby-boomers but hell, there will always be some gems who will stick and develop like Franckie18 and others. If there is complaining that we are elitist, well then so be it. This foum was always open to everyone who accepted the rules, and the rules were pretty easy. We had our disagreements on certain topics, but we never banned each other because of that. We banned because of unnecessary insults and other stuff like that.

Let's rebuild a forum community, where we help and support each other, because quite honestly, we can build a system to handle this. I don't think we need a country to exist as a community. It's the community that is important, not the fact that we have 3 provinces.

I was really moved by this post. I whole heartily agree. It is sad to see our community drifted the way it did and I hope of better days to come. Thanks for speaking your mind as it was very powerful.
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Re: Why Don't We Stop The Pretense

Post by Elynea on 2015-02-03, 09:32

For me formers persons who are in different countries will stay eBelgian in their heart. Nothing changes.

It's hard to stay in a country when you see one opposition. I would like to see one unity, but it's impossible.

My real country is Belgium, i will stay here (here or there) it's the same for me.

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Re: Why Don't We Stop The Pretense

Post by G.W.Junior on 2015-02-03, 11:26

I will donate Free Q5 Travel Ticket for everyone who will go from eBe

is my contribution

HatOff
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Re: Why Don't We Stop The Pretense

Post by Elynea on 2015-02-03, 13:30

G.W.Junior wrote:I will donate Free Q5 Travel Ticket for everyone who will go from eBe

is my contribution

HatOff

Are you rich ?

I saw the debate, but i think in the end we can agree but all must think about persons who stay.
I respect all except persons who made multis.

It can be an eternal debate. Maybe we can talk about most funny things.

Several persons make hard comments, but persons who are in ebelgium try to do their best to make all pleasant and sometimes it's hard too Smile

kiss for all
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Elynea
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Re: Why Don't We Stop The Pretense

Post by Konrad Neumann on 2015-02-03, 20:54

G.W.Junior wrote:I will donate Free Q5 Travel Ticket for everyone who will go from eBe

is my contribution

HatOff

You will pay for people leaving eBE?
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Konrad Neumann
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Re: Why Don't We Stop The Pretense

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