what about croatia

i would tike your attention : we can see the progression of the Croatia.

They progress toward Ebelgium. One region to conquer and after they can swap regions with Eden.

I prefer inform you of this situation.

What should we do to prepare for this situation?
I am in favor of anything that will guarantee our independence.

Do we have contacts with their officials ?
They would be able to inform us about their intentions.

They made propositions in an other part of the forum.

But we can try diplomacy, make an mpp is so hard when we want keep neutrality. I don't think Croatia respect our neutrality, maybe i'm wrong, but i don't see their interest if they really want pass by eBelgium, it's a fact, with our strength, it will be difficult for us.

But if an mpp means we am going to survive , it could be a good idea.
We would never have to go crazy with it an start putting , hail Phoenix or Hail EDEN , just go with it till the threat as passed.

They have to make an "declare war" before, it's a fact.

An mpp is hard, when we want to keep neutrality.

Elynea wrote:They have to make an "declare war" before, it's a fact.

An mpp is hard, when we want to keep neutrality.

Someone needs to have a sit down with them , and have a talk it sounds then.
And true , but i'm saying it is a way for our eCountry to survive the situation , if a war begins.

To be honnest we need to look at the world map at the moment, and what roads Croatia can take to get to Asia (because this is their goal).

1 - They can't take the short way as they will be blocked by Serbia in Pakistan.
2 - They can try to move through Germany and France, very costy as they have a lot of population
3 - They can take the VERY long way : first through Czesh Republic, then Spain, BELGIUM, Poland, USA, Canada or Japan, etc...

Currently the most probably IS 3 as it will be the lest costy and they have a lot of allies over their. They only have to open battles, and not spend thousands of gold in tanking.

We definitly need to take measures to make sure that they don't pass through our country. How? An MPP, hungary? Why not, Spain? Doubt that they will fight for us, but why not? I am open to everything but WE WILL NOT LET THEM PASS

RUSSIA! Russia is very strong as seen in the past fights. We are not saying what side, we must look for the strongest!

Manong Rizal wrote:RUSSIA! Russia is very strong as seen in the past fights. We are not saying what side, we must look for the strongest!

and very in the side of phoenix

we have to hope efrance, Egermany can regain their regions (it will be hard).

Elynea wrote:

Manong Rizal wrote:RUSSIA! Russia is very strong as seen in the past fights. We are not saying what side, we must look for the strongest!

and very in the side of phoenix

we have to hope efrance, Egermany can regain their regions (it will be hard).

If that is the case, then we can just sit down and do nothing

OR,

we can let Croatia pass thru Flanders and ask them to pay us money and a Q5 hospital... so isnt this exactly like the argument before?

Anyways, why do we have to look at previous post when replying to a thread? That's really... err...

Manong Rizal wrote:

Elynea wrote:

Manong Rizal wrote:RUSSIA! Russia is very strong as seen in the past fights. We are not saying what side, we must look for the strongest!

and very in the side of phoenix

we have to hope efrance, Egermany can regain their regions (it will be hard).

If that is the case, then we can just sit down and do nothing

OR,

we can let Croatia pass thru Flanders and ask them to pay us money and a Q5 hospital... so isnt this exactly like the argument before?

Anyways, why do we have to look at previous post when replying to a thread? That's really... err...

The problem, we are neutral, if we make a deal with Croatia, it will be unfair.

As I said : another hospital/Defense system is useless...

+1 Apotygma

it's money thrown by the windows.

I think we need to ask to the people to come in bruxelles because there is a Q5 Hospital.


Gerb

then how bout just the money? and for the hospital part, I dont think it's useless... Ive contacted many newbs, provided them with MTs and still wont move.

So if we really want to stay neutral here, we do nothing and hope that France and German regions would be back.

maybe they can pass by Italia too, it's depend "declare war" and the mpp in front.

Elynea wrote:maybe they can pass by Italia too, it's depend "declare war" and the mpp in front.

Italy is PHOENIX (or Pro)

Croatia's war declaration will cost a lot to declare war on Belgium. If we sign an MPP with a PEACE country that is close to them they can attack them to get an open war with us, but risk activating MPPs and a hefty cost as well (Most regions surrounding Croatia are heavily populated). If we want to have an MPP we should have target a PEACE country that is further away from Croatia, such as Russia. I don't think it would be enough though.

PEACE = PHOENIX now

And good intell.

Oh, I forgot, I read PigInZen's article and he was talking about some non-agression policy. Maybe we can MPP with the Americans?

http://www.erepublik.com/en/article/us-foreign-policy-statement-march-23-2010-1267128/1/20

Yes any deal to allow their passage or MPP with any nation would not really be neutral. As much as I would like to get paid we need to maintain our neutrality.

Ironic that some of those Croatian Military members have citizenship here.....

Manong Rizal wrote:Oh, I forgot, I read PigInZen's article and he was talking about some non-agression policy. Maybe we can MPP with the Americans?

http://www.erepublik.com/en/article/us-foreign-policy-statement-march-23-2010-1267128/1/20

Sounds neutral to me, are they still in EDEN? Will they fight against their Croat buddies just to help the "underdog"?

Non agression policy for countries "unaligned nations, nations friendly to the United States and nations allied to the United States "

Apotygma wrote:Non agression policy for countries "unaligned nations, nations friendly to the United States and nations allied to the United States "

We can be a special case? And if we do MPP with US, Croatia will have to respect the non-Agression policy as part of EDEN, no?

Neutrality means we can't have MPPs with belligerents. It means we are vulnerable. But it is what we have chosen and it is the right way.

The eUSA is still in EDEN and considers the Croats to be Broatians. Those two won't fight eachother. The Russians are as PHX as USA is EDEN.

We have two choices without MPPs:
1) let them through and get some money and a firm agreement for RWing the region back.
2) fight them. Lose. Get nothing. Have no idea when and how we'll get the region back and possibly incur their wrath and eternal resentment which may include conquest (or not, I don't know what they are like).

I used to think it was a toss-up but now I think 1, if applied to both sides, is probably the smartest.

It's about survival. Not just in the near-term but establishing conditions for the long-term. This is, I believe, sort of what Denmark did and they did all right for quite some time.

We could 'broaden' the term of neutrality aimed at securing the existence of the eBelgian state.

There's no reason in being absolutely neutral if the country gets erased. Some Bismarckpolicy might come in handy.

You must know if Croatians want to pass, they will pass mpp or not.

The proposition of the Croatians : we don't have to discut about that, if we accept something, we lost our neutrality.

If we accept something from Croatia, we won't be 100% neutral anymore but we will still be on the map. We have also to think to survive. Being 85% neutral and survive is enough for me We have 2 regions to rent so we can rent the other region to the other alliance to maintain our neutrality :p

The point is: if we say NO to Croatia but don't exist 2 days after the NO, we will need help from the other alliance and won't be neutral anymore as well. I prefer to prevent that.

Life is not only black or white. For neutrality, it is the same...

And we have to keep in mind the priorities: first a free eBelgium and second our neutrality, and not the contrary.

Derphel wrote:If we accept something from Croatia, we won't be 100% neutral anymore but we will still be on the map. We have also to think to survive. Being 85% neutral and survive is enough for me We have 2 regions to rent so we can rent the other region to the other alliance to maintain our neutrality :p

The point is: if we say NO to Croatia but don't exist 2 days after the NO, we will need help from the other alliance and won't be neutral anymore as well. I prefer to prevent that.

Life is not only black or white. For neutrality, it is the same...

And we have to keep in mind the priorities: first a free eBelgium and second our neutrality, and not the contrary.

Our neutrality IS our survival as a country. If we make an agreement with the Croatians we voluntarily give up our neutrality. If they attack us and we seek aid from Phoenix, then it is Croatia who forced our hand. We then have to make very clear that we only sought help from Phoenix to protect Belgium from aggressors.

In both cases we sell our soul to an alliance. For me it makes no difference if it is before or after being totally destroyed because we know that we will need help from phoenix already now.

If Croatia ask to pass, Croatia will oblige us to make a choice. We will have to choose between honor and stability. (But because it is a game we can make a bet for honor)

Derphel, the proposition of croatie is useless (we don't need another hospital in this region). They just want to make problem with our neutrality.

If croatia want to pass in our country, nothing can stop that, why?

A mpp with a country from phoenix : we lost neutrality
A mpp with a country from eden : they are friends with Croatia.

It's the game, we can't do more. Just hope Efrance or Egermany have their regions again, and then we don't have a border with them.

Indeed Elynea, but if this doesn't happen we need to have something prepared. Do you think Croatians will wait 2-3 days time that we discuss everything giving PHOENIX the chance to RW all the other regions?

No, if they are at our doors, they will attack whatever we promised them.

Ho and : an MPP with Spain isn't a good idea as it would open a direct war with us.

We are neutral as far as it depends on us, neutrality doesn't mean letting bully nations kick us around. And the MPP would only be for defense and would not be recurring. That isn't taking a side it's defending ourselves.

I'm interested to see what the EDEN congressmen think?

Will it look like we're siding with Phoenix if we are attacked and defend ourselves? If so, how should we go about it?

Why are they absent from this discussion when they have many friends in Croatia? This is why a congressman's allegiance is so important.

I don't consider myself an EDEN congressman but you probably do and I have posted here.

I don't speak for anybody but myself but it seems to me an MPP with a Phoenix country would definitely put us on the EDEN hit list. Just as one with EDEN would for Phoenix. That is the way of losing neutrality. They defend us once and then what happens the next time? So we have to keep re-upping the MPP and then Hungary shows up, as they do in these situations (France, for instance), and says "we've protected you all this time now we need you to attack Poland at 1100 hrs." And make all sorts of threats and such (Japan) if we don't comply. No. MPPs will not do. Of course that's moot because a PHX MPP wouldn't pass congress anyway.

In order to remain neutral in this game we have to think of doing things we would not consider doing in RL. (Just as in RL Croatia would never think of going through Belgium to get to China). I have said, here and before this particular crisis, that we should look to the Danish model, which was to let either side through. I would modify this by negotiating conditions for the return of whatever region. I have never suggested this lightly nor do I now. But it is the only thing that neutrality can mean in the game unless you are strong enough and/or isolated enough to avoid crises or defend ourselves. Think of it as turning the other cheek.

MPPs either way would lead to the loss of both sovereignty and neutrality.

Anyway, Croatia doesn't really seem serious about going through Germany so hopefully we've gotten all het up about nothing again.

I really hope so.

I see your point but I disagree that letting a nation march through us is more neutral than defending ourselves if attacked.

And Tacitus I don't consider you an EDEN congressman

Gibberish45 wrote:I see your point but I disagree that letting a nation march through us is more neutral than defending ourselves if attacked.

And Tacitus I don't consider you an EDEN congressman

*blushes*

good news for us : Lower Saxony and Bremen has been occupied by Germany.

Elynea wrote:good news for us : Lower Saxony and Bremen has been occupied by Germany.

Good to hear , as soon as eFrance and eGermany have got all their territories back , we should have almost guaranteed safety.

On the short term, safety is already guaranteed. With this region, eGermany totally blocks the north path eCroatia should have used to come to eBelgium.

Now if they want to pass they'd have south as a better option through eSwitzerland or eItaly.

yea for now belgium is save because every country has to go through germany so they wont do that because u have seen croatian battle vs germany this day and that was a 4mill victory for germany so they wont be strong enough to defeat germany.

Although the danger has passed us this time (once again), still I'd like to add some personal considerations on neutrality. The way I feel about it, we're either neutral, or we're not - "almost", "usually, but not always" or "85%" means "not". If we're not one hundred percent neutral, we won't be regarded as neutral by the outside world, and we won't be respected. The dilemma of letting a country pass trough us or not is actually one of opportunism versus principles, money versus pride (integrity, honour, good reputation,...) - and both options would probably balance each other out on a scale of pros and cons, leaving the discussion to be one of personal preferences.

As to "being totally destroyed", this isn't actually a real danger, since the agressor will only occupy one region to pass, and won't make a detour for the other two regions.

Aldous Zamiatin wrote:
As to "being totally destroyed", this isn't actually a real danger, since the agressor will only occupy one region to pass, and won't make a detour for the other two regions.

They did in Austria....

As for Germany, Croatia didn't contest the battle in Bavaria at all so I'm not really sure they ever intended to go that way.

But I suppose we do need a template for the next time this comes up. Which'll probably be in a couple of days...

I am firmly against MPPs as I think we immediately lose neutrality that way and eventually even lose sovereignty.

We cannot prevent anyone (except eNL and maybe eUK) going through us on our own so the question is how do we manage the passage? No one has any reason ever to take more than one region but our intransigence might compel them to rage wipe us. But probably not. The other option is to negotiate terms of passage (gold, a schedule for the region's return). We tend to think of this as dishonorable and whorish but this is a game; the rules are different. Such behavior here is clever gameplay; it could make us some much-needed money and allow us to remain both independent and neutral.

In the first case countries from the opposing alliance of the one that wants to go through will be trying to MPP us as soon as anything seems likely to happen. Pester, pester, pester. Sure, in some cases they could prevent passage. But then they've got the thin edge of the wedge in. They can claim to be our saviours and demand if not allegiance then certainly deference.

In the second case people pretty much leave us alone knowing we take a fair hand to either side and have no reason to be swayed one way or the other. As we would have no fear of conquest we would have no grasping need for security at any cost (to us). If they need to go through they know they need to give us a deal and it's a small part of any major campaign budget (battles run into the many thousands of gold now) and they'll be on their way as soon as practicable.

Everytime I write this I almost erase it at the end anyway. It's not a pleasant or easy to consider but I am becoming more and more convinced that it is the truth and the only way. That this acceptance of game realities is what is needed to preserve independence and neutrality in the long run.

We should contact them and sit and talk about this situation.

thedragon wrote:We should contact them and sit and talk about this situation.

I agree , if a situation liek this comes up again soon , we must have a sit down with them and talk about what is going on , before we create panic.

Take an MPP with both a PHOENIX country(Like Russia, Romool is pretty cool) and an EDEN country? It's like +1 minus 1 makes zero.

Frerk wrote:Take an MPP with both a PHOENIX country(Like Russia, Romool is pretty cool) and an EDEN country? It's like +1 minus 1 makes zero.

Possible, but need to make sure to find 2 countries that are not at war with each other. Much harder =P

Frerk wrote:Take an MPP with both a PHOENIX country(Like Russia, Romool is pretty cool) and an EDEN country? It's like +1 minus 1 makes zero.

That would be great if you could find a non-conflicting combination AND if either side had an interest in sacrificing their flexibility for our protection.

yea i dont think its possible to find those countries.
the best protection is that somebody has to start a DoW before they can attack.
and now with usa not that fond of letting croatia pass its more unlikely that croatia needs belgium anytime soon to pass.
i think the government did the right thing in this situation.
allthough i cant see what is happening inside.

Being neutral mean also being alone is that wise?
If we could create a Non-Aligned league whith some others neutral countries like this we wouldn't be all alone.