Of taxes and citizen rights

ThomasRED wrote:

shadowukcs wrote:In other words: you're using the tax payers money as hostage to ensure that the masses obey the will of the "community".

That would be true if our treasury would have been built thanks to players taxes, and not by the bot taxes thanks to the work of the MoF and of a special program to collect more taxes in which participated few active citizens.

>MoF program



Stop being so funny TR, I almost jizzed my pants thar.

Any form of financial strategy in this game has been completely gone since January 2008. Don't kid yourself into thinking that another MoF would have brought in less or more money.

As for the bot, the bot only buys what players put on the market. So players are as much the cause for income as the bot. In fact, the bot and the players are the ONLY source of income. So why is it that not ALL players can enjoy of the earnings of this and only the ones that nicely bow their heads and obey the every command of the "community"?

thats just the point, you've got it, inactive players do not sell so do not produce taxmoney, so why should they make profit of the work done by someone else.
others exchange on some black-market so do not pay taxes but they are active so they can make double profit.(is not fair is it? )
Every player can get his part if he wants, all he has to do is ask for it on the forum. Nobody has to bow his head, otherwise I would already long gone, I assure.

boer jan wrote:thats just the point, you've got it, inactive players do not sell so do not produce taxmoney, so why should they make profit of the work done by someone else.
others exchange on some black-market so do not pay taxes but they are active so they can make double profit.(is not fair is it? )

you're wrong actually. There's a very large group of players who aren't forum active but do generate taxes. (2 clickers, people who don't like forums, people who aren't aware of the existence, people who aren't welcome on the forum because they are seen as PTO'ers, ...), but they generate a very big part nevertheless.

boer jan wrote:
Every player can get his part if he wants, all he has to do is ask for it on the forum. Nobody has to bow his head, otherwise I would already long gone, I assure.

Funny that you mention this. I asked, and was turned down. Despite being a citizen and fullfilling THEIR requirements. They used as a reason a verdict of one of THEIR trials (held while I didn't had access there)

despite the fact that I was in eBE for 3 years and was a top 5-top 10 producer in that period, having generated more tax money for the state than the majority of players.

Same with BYS: you can only get it if you fullfill the requirements of "the community", yet the money comes from all players.

You don't know what you're talking about shadow about our taxes. There have been several people that have studied our income hour by hour, day by day, and this for weeks and months. Based on the results, we have adapted our taxes policy, and we have stimulated our income through the daily selling of thousands of q5 guns in eBelgium. The result have been an incredible raise of our taxes and of the size of our treasury, which had lead to the funding of several citizens programs because of the work of a few ones, making eBelgium one of the best country in the eWorld in term of citizen support.

The large group of active players but non forum members that you described don't generate the very big part of our income, but maybe few percents at maximum. But it's not because they don't generate the big part of the income that they don't have the right to request citizen support, because it is all about solidarity. In your specific case, the situation is different. You're convicted of theft of national assets, you didn't respected agreements that you made with our country, and you're keeping a state MU in your possession. Once you agree to regularize your situation, eBE will be ready to forgot that you have been a stealer, and you will be able to request BYS, citizen packs, or any others citizen programs, as for every citizen. The only thing that matter is that you respect eBelgium.

Spoiler:

Please, do not turn this thread into mud-throwing. Thanks

There is no nud-throwing Requiem Domine, i just explain that shadow didn't get refused to enjoy citizen programs despite the fact he consider he have been a major tax payer for years in eBE because of "the community that decided to exclude him", but because of his actions : to have not appointted a commander choosen by the State in the BAF state MU, to have not respected his SO loan agreement by stopping being a SO before the period of 2 months stipulated in the contract he agreed on, and by not having repaid the loan of 84 500 bef he received on his request. These actions explains why he is not welcomed on this forum like a national hero as he would like, but more like a thief.

But this was only a ( ), the important part in my previous message was that our taxes and treasury have not been built thanks to the help of the "large group of active citizens but non forum members", but on the contrary, thanks to the hard and time consuming work of a small group of active forum members, that have allowed everyone to enjoy the result of theirs actions lead by the MoF.

ThomasRED wrote:You don't know what you're talking about shadow about our taxes. There have been several people that have studied our income hour by hour, day by day, and this for weeks and months.

Strange, because just like last time you made "claims" based on "your studies" I showed you reports from eUSA where they did research on a bigger scale and came to different findings than yours.

the bot does not directly pump money in the treasury. The bot buys up goods THAT HAVE BEEN PUT ON THE MARKET BY PLAYERS (ergo players are one of the reasons for the profit our treasury generates), and the tax on these products flows to the treasury.

ThomasRED wrote:
And if you believe eBE owe you money because you think you paid a lot of taxes, then what does eBE owe to Nohjis, Jofroi, Olv007, etc... ? It doesn't work like that, and what matter at the end is the solidarity between belgians. It's not always all about ourselves, but more about our community that we want to improve.

I don't believe eBE owes me money (well not on that anyway)

But it does point out that ALL citizens deserve a piece of the cake and not only the ones that follow YOUR orders.

oh and I said I was top 5-10. I don't know what they thought you in school, but I was always thought that this indicates that there a few others who produced more than me. I see you're still having problems with reading after all this time.

oh and funny that you mention OUR community when you take away my access to if because I didn't follow YOUR rules.

ThomasRED wrote:
The large group of active players but non forum members that you described don't generate the very big part of our income, but maybe few percents at maximum.

[citation needed]

A look at the RM markets tells a different story. I see many names of non-forum active eBE players there. But those little petty ants don't matter in the eyes of the great ThomasRed

ThomasRED wrote:
But it's not because they don't generate the big part of the income that they don't have the right to request citizen support, because it is all about solidarity. In your specific case, the situation is different. You're convicted of theft of national assets, you didn't respected agreements that you made with our country, and you're keeping a state MU in your possession.

First off: Your silly role-playing court decided I stole "national assets", without me even participating in the trial. (not that I would have had any intention to make an idiot out of myself in such ridiculous theatrical piece of role playing bullsh*t)

second: as for the MU. I bought it off a guy who, "allegedly" stole it (highly disputable in my opinion. Again this theft was decided in a one-sided court case where the "alleged thief" wasn't present). I also PM'd the admins about countries having ownership rights over the MU.They clearly specified that the MU is my ownership and my ownership alone and that the state of eBE has no claims whatsoever on this MU. I think IG admin ruling >>>>>>>>>>>>> silly role play court case ruling, no? I have the admin mail in my mailbox if you want to see it.

but hey, give me the money back I paid for it (35G) and I'll be happy to oblige in giving you your MU back.

ThomasRED wrote:
Once you agree to regularize your situation, eBE will be ready to forgot that you have been a stealer, and you will be able to request BYS, citizen packs, or any others citizen programs, as for every citizen.

soooo... once I bow my head, fall on my knees for my supreme white overlords and say "yes boss, pop'h shad'w 'll go w'rk on da corn fields now", I'll get back in?

hey, here's a thing, lets NOT do that coz I didn't steal.

ThomasRED wrote:
The only thing that matter is that you respect eBelgium.

I do, I just don't respect you.

ThomasRED wrote: These actions explains why he is not welcomed on this forum like a national hero as he would like, but more like a thief.

>Implying I'm actually into this role playing crap like you


oh TR, haven't you realised this yet? Not everyone is as saddly into this game as you.

ThomasRED wrote:
But this was only a ( ), the important part in my previous message was that our taxes and treasury have not been built thanks to the help of the "large group of active citizens but non forum members", but on the contrary, thanks to the hard and time consuming work of a small group of active forum members, that have allowed everyone to enjoy the result of theirs actions lead by the MoF.

>makes statements, contradicted by other without backing them up

[insert witty comment about what a good boy you are]

It's true that a couple of months ago, a significant part of the state income came from a restricted group of people who bought Q5 weapons in other countries to resell them back in eBelgium which generated a pretty important extra tax income.

VAT "studies" have been conducted but not extensively and I still think that we could still increase it without hurting much the economy, but that'd indeed hurt 2 clickers who are reponsible of a large part of our economy (but the forum active players are among the richest and therefore have far more products to sell which make them more important tax payers than the average eBelgium player and I think that their weight is pretty important (Pareto 80-20 law, even if here I'd not say that it is that extreme)).

Actually, I only think of four ways where all the citizens could profit of tax income (but I might forget some):

1: Someone do automatic donation to all citizens
2: A kind of forced communes
3: All citizens would be active on the forum
4: No taxes at all.

However, 1-3 are not possible for practical reasons and the 4th would lead to a global loss for the country and would be a handicap overall. Even if the current system lead to inequalities I think that it is more fair than this option.

I'm not saying that it is the only option and there are indeed alternatives existing (I guess^^) but thing are going pretty well imo.

Viridi wrote:Please take all petty arguments elsewhere, as this topic is for debate/discussion about RD's campaign, not for arguing over how we run our treasury, etc.

I would take it to the congress debate area but ... euhmmm certain technical inconveniences prevent me from doing that.

We do have moderators, right?

And have any of you actually looked at the daily tax income over the last month or so?

We do indeed have moderators. Thus this side discussion has been moved here. Please keep it here and not in the campaign post.

GoopyPants, I have no idea how to check our daily tax revenue.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AnsySFfyjbiJdGVHc0czQWdhTUpvS192VFIzVmRsTEE&hl=en#gid=0

I don't understand why people still try to argument with Shad...

Olv007 wrote:I don't understand why people still try to argument with Shad...

they love to see him complain for BS reasons ?

Olv007 wrote:I don't understand why people still try to argument with Shad...

(e)Belgium, land of complains and useless talks :p.

Here are my 2 cents.

There are two dynamics of the game. There is one base on game rules and in game stuff and there is part of the game that is of the community. While you have eBE CS, you have the rights entitled to an eBEer in game. That means you have the right to right in the eBE media, join a party in eBE and run for PP congress and CP in eBE. These are your rights that we cannot take away from you. However, there is part of the game of the community which have their own rules and norms. Regardless of who is correct, one must follow the norms of the community or the majority consensus to enjoy the rights and benefits of the community. It might be a lot of "Role Playing" or other BS etc but if you want to be a part of the community, you must play their game.

I understand there are a lot of conflicts between Shadow and TR etc. I also know shadow has taken a lot of s*** from some members of this community; however, imo, shadow should "roll play" some more as this is the norms of the community. Your ice cold demeanor does not aid your cause but is only giving a platform for TR and others to bash you more and giving them more reasons to block your access to the forum etc. Self fulfilling prophesy!

Konrad Neumann wrote:
I understand there are a lot of conflicts between Shadow and TR etc. I also know shadow has taken a lot of s*** from some members of this community; however, imo, shadow should "roll play" some more as this is the norms of the community. Your ice cold demeanor does not aid your cause but is only giving a platform for TR and others to bash you more and giving them more reasons to block your access to the forum etc. Self fulfilling prophesy!

It's true that TR and a lot of other persons do not like shad (and vice versa :p). However, Shad STOLE money from the state, this is not because we do not like him or whatever that we refuse his come back. For what I remember there have been 3 persons who stole money in the history of eBelgium. Two are still banned from the community and the third one paid back and is still a part of the community.

If Shadow pays back, he will have his rights back. This is not our choice, this is his.

Jofroi wrote:

Olv007 wrote:I don't understand why people still try to argument with Shad...

(e)Belgium, land of complains and useless talks :p.

silence is a very powerful tool

mittekemuis wrote:
silence is a very powerful tool

Sure, why do you think I didn't said anything about program funding until now?

Reading shadow's tirade on the forum, it isn't accurate about some points.

first, concentrating on gold isn't an accurate assessment of the amount of reserves; you have to include the BEF stockpile too.

second, the dramatic drop in the treasury has occurred in the last month, directly related to tax income, and the drop was noticed and reported.

third, eBelgium doesn't need a giant treasury... all it does is make it a PTO target and ossify politics. Having a much smaller treasury would allow politics to be much more open and adventurous, with less risk.

goopypants wrote:Reading shadow's tirade on the forum, it isn't accurate about some points.

first, concentrating on gold isn't an accurate assessment of the amount of reserves; you have to include the BEF stockpile too.

second, the dramatic drop in the treasury has occurred in the last month, directly related to tax income, and the drop was noticed and reported.

third, eBelgium doesn't need a giant treasury... all it does is make it a PTO target and ossify politics. Having a much smaller treasury would allow politics to be much more open and adventurous, with less risk.

fully agree with 1 and 2
for 3, this is about personal preferences I guess