Re: quote

by **Fhaemita Malodorous** 2011-11-07, 10:24

“The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it comes stronger than their democratic state itself. That, in its essence, is fascism - ownership of government by an individual, by a group,”
- Franklin D. Roosevelt

I think it's appropriate for eBelgium

by **shadowukcs** 2011-11-07, 15:03

It is indeed appropriate for the ~~military junta~~ eBelgium

by **Ward De Bever** 2011-11-07, 15:11

This CP was just elected with the explicit directives that correspond to the then-current will of Congress on key points such as the state budget and foreign policy. If you want to radically change these things (for instance, vote to cancel every monthly BAF budget or give the Treasury to shadowukcs) then you will have to find another president first. I respect the will of Congress, and the fact that this will evolves, but Congress must show some respect for the promises/directives to which the CP bound himself publicly in his campaign too Wink

See also the BTA budget increase discussion on this for instance: http://www.erepbelgium.com/t4703-bta-budget#89376

by **Jonathan Clay** 2011-11-07, 15:14

Seriously congress isn't here to execute the CP election program
Congress doesn't need to do anything for the CP

by **Ward De Bever** 2011-11-07, 15:29

Jonathan Clay wrote:Seriously congress isn't here to execute the CP election program
Congress doesn't need to do anything for the CP

If you see it like that, I can answer with the in-game fact (which cannot be otherwise) that it's the democratically elected CP and government who set Country Orders and have the passes for the state orgs. How can you enforce Congress' will on the CP otherwise short of impeaching him? I promised to respect Congress' will on very important, explicitly stated matters. I was elected with these directives. I don't see why I should break my promises on a whim. Is there anything practical to this argument? I only propose a way to avoid useless conflicts like we had in the recent past. If this Congress feels it wants to give the content of the NBB-BNB org account (1961.18 gold and 73678 BEF) to a foreign MU for instance, it's an important enough matter to elect a new CP on. If Congress feels it wants to give the content of the state account (19.88 gold and 123163 BEF) to a foreign MU, in-game Congress can vote so in-game and I will have to respect that contradiction. But I will not, in the current state of this argument, move from my position that the Treasury is too important to gamble with, and will, as far as remotely possible and intended, stick to the platform on which me and this government were democratically elected.

by **MaryamQ** 2011-11-07, 15:31

Mr. Clay is right. Congress is an independent legislative branch, and have their own elective mandates. Congress may not be able to impose its will on the CP with regard to his in-game functions, but neither can he impose his will on them.

by **jamster737** 2011-11-07, 15:33

So far ward hasnt done anything wrong. I want to let you know ward when/if you do i will be the first to comment Smile

as for the structure i would like to see the admins reformed soon.

by **Fhaemita Malodorous** 2011-11-07, 15:34

Ward De Bever wrote: I respect the will of Congress, and the fact that this will evolves, but Congress must show some respect for the promises/directives to which the CP bound himself publicly in his campaign too

That is funny, congress have to bend to the CP's will because the promised the CP made.
I find that very laughable and undemocratic, that's not how things work Ward, maybe in a country under a militairy Junta but not in a democracy.

by **NLSP** 2011-11-07, 15:37

there is a difference between: "Congress has to show some respect for the CP and his directives" and "congress has to bend to the CP's will"

by **Ward De Bever** 2011-11-07, 15:46

If Congress wants to see the admin structure reformed, it works best when respectfully discussing this with the admins. If mutual respect is absent, impeach the admins by leaving this very forum massively.

If Congress wants to see the Army structure reformed, it works best when respectfully discussing this with the Army. If mutual respect is absent, impeach the Army by not funding it anymore and leaving the Army MU's massively.

If Congress wants to see the NBB-BNB account policy reformed, it works best when respectfully discussing this with the CP and government. If mutual respect is absent, impeach the CP and his government.

And so on Smile

It's not because the Army structures are successful that Belgium is a military dictatorship. Btw, I made a proposal to effectively reduce the BAF budget by a substantial amount and increase the BTA budget and the number of mpp's - so we can 'factually check' how this thread's exchange of views works in practice.

by **shadowukcs** 2011-11-07, 15:52

Jonathan Clay wrote:Seriously congress isn't here to execute the CP election program
Congress doesn't need to do anything for the CP

this

Ward seems to have difficulties understanding how democracy works

by **Jonathan Clay** 2011-11-07, 15:54

Ward I agree that discussion and debate should take place before taking decisions and the CP can explain his point of view but the final decisions is with the congressmen and their vote

by **NLSP** 2011-11-07, 15:58

Jonathan Clay wrote:Ward I agree that discussion and debate should take place before taking decisions and the CP can explain his point of view but the final decisions is with the congressmen and their vote

And that is something that ward also knows and understands and follows.
Apparently some (not carefully enough chosen) words where by some people misunderstood and I am sure that there was no intentions to enforce the CP's will upon congress.
However, the CP has some rights and privileges that are undeniable his and not congress...

by **shadowukcs** 2011-11-07, 16:12

NLSP wrote:
Jonathan Clay wrote:Ward I agree that discussion and debate should take place before taking decisions and the CP can explain his point of view but the final decisions is with the congressmen and their vote
And that is something that ward also knows and understands and follows.
Apparently some (not carefully enough chosen) words where by some people misunderstood and I am sure that there was no intentions to enforce the CP's will upon congress.

oh, so you speak in Wards place now?

I didn't know you where his multi?

by **Ward De Bever** 2011-11-07, 16:30

Jonathan Clay wrote:Seriously congress isn't here to execute the CP election program
Congress doesn't need to do anything for the CP

Jonathan Clay wrote:Ward I agree that discussion and debate should take place before taking decisions and the CP can explain his point of view but the final decisions is with the congressmen and their vote

We clearly need explicit distinctions between the role-play and in-game parts of democracy in this game, and ways to make these two parts work better together. I honestly consider that I do a serious effort to help positions come closer together, not farther apart, and so do the government members and advisers I selected. It's good to be idealistic and have wild dreams, but it's also a good thing to actually try to realise something as a community.

by **shadowukcs** 2011-11-07, 16:32

the CP is the hand of congress.

Congress decides, the CP executes. Simple as that

by **Ward De Bever** 2011-11-07, 16:35

shadowukcs wrote:the CP is the hand of congress.

Congress decides, the CP executes. Simple as that

That's nice as an idealistic vision, but the reality of in-game rules is slightly different. Why not try to make this explicit and bring positions closer together instead of stimulating the Great Fracture lol

Again, I was just elected with a platform of which my main critics claimed it was not innovative enough - I can tell you, I created that platform so that it sticks as closely as possible to the views of Congress at that time.

by **shadowukcs** 2011-11-07, 16:41

Ward De Bever wrote:
shadowukcs wrote:the CP is the hand of congress.

Congress decides, the CP executes. Simple as that
That's nice as an idealistic vision, but the reality of in-game rules is slightly different. Why not try to make this explicit and bring positions closer together instead of stimulating the Great Fracture lol

oooooh, so democracy is now an "idealistic vision" to you?

tell me, how do we have to adress the leaders of your junta? Dictator? totalitarians? Generals?

by **Boklevski** 2011-11-07, 16:45

Our dear Jonathan Clay put it fully correct.

The eRep "way of democracy" (yes, there are more) is most comparable to the US real-life equivalent, where the Congress* does not have to follow the decisions of the White House (President).

U.S. Congress consists of the Senate and the House of Representatives, but that's not incorporated in eRep.

In fact, that's why Obama and his democrats were so disappointed in the Republican majority in Congress, because he can't pass all the laws he would like at this moment...

So basically, Congress doesn't have to give an elephant's dung about the CP's promises, although they might follow it (partly or fully) as a majority of the eBE citizens elected the CP and thus his goals.

by **Boklevski** 2011-11-07, 16:48

[MOD MODUS]

Shadow, may I politely ask you to tone down a bit on the term "junta" - for some people a sensitive term based on the quite horrible RL events during a real-life junta.
We know how you think of the current government, but continuing saying it's a "junta" without adding further arguments to the debate isn't really constructive.

[/MOD MODUS]

by **Jofroi** 2011-11-07, 17:33

At the end, the congress will indeed has the power to refuse to vote any law proposed by the CP and the congress is the most powerfull entity (even if I think that the CP should have more power, but that's another problem).

The CP cannot force the congress to do what he wants it to do, but he has the ability to convince it to support him and to debate with the congressmen to make them support his program.

If the congress finally refuse it, the CP will have no choice but to either step down or to enter in a total war that he won't be able to win. Worst case the congress can decide to elect a non IG elected representative that will do the CP job (excepted for a couple of things like the NE, CP has not much power IG that congress does not have).

by **aVegan** 2011-11-07, 17:42

Fhaemita Malodorous wrote:
“The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it comes stronger than their democratic state itself. That, in its essence, is fascism - ownership of government by an individual, by a group,”
- Franklin D. Roosevelt

I think it's appropriate for eBelgium

Indeed and the worst is that this has happened with congress and government support.
However we can ask ourselves when has eBe ever known true democracy. At least not in the 7 months I was around...

But the struggle to change this has never died. From the start citizens (among them congress and government members) have pointed this out. Sadly nobody ever listened...
It is our job to make them listen and finally change this!!!

by **Ward De Bever** 2011-11-07, 17:49

aVegan wrote:
Fhaemita Malodorous wrote:
“The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it comes stronger than their democratic state itself. That, in its essence, is fascism - ownership of government by an individual, by a group,”
- Franklin D. Roosevelt

I think it's appropriate for eBelgium

Indeed and the worst is that this has happened with congress and government support.
However we can ask ourselves when has eBe ever known true democracy. At least not in the 7 months I was around...

But the struggle to change this has never died. From the start citizens (among them congress and government members) have pointed this out. Sadly nobody ever listened...
It is our job to make them listen and finally change this!!!

What is the practical proposal to make this happen? Referenda? State-owned companies? I still have to see the first part of a program that can one day be put into practice here.

If you want referenda, how will you organise them? How will you make them enforceable? If you want real state-owned companies, how will you combine this with the in-game rules that forbids orgs to run companies? How do you see your vision of democracy in practice?

by **NLSP** 2011-11-07, 17:50

Referenda

long time anyone mentioned this.
eh but yeah, that could be an excellent way to deal with stuff.

by **ThomasRED** 2011-11-07, 17:54

NLSP wrote:Referenda
long time anyone mentioned this.
eh but yeah, that could be an excellent way to deal with stuff.

But who could vote in the referenda ? Because ingame players are mostly "noobs" and "2clickers" according many... That's why Shadowukcs proposed to elect the Belgian CP on the forum, and not ingame. Because the power should go to the forum members. But is it more democratic that the current situation where our CP got more of 50% of the votes ingame ?

by **NLSP** 2011-11-07, 17:56

oh, every belgian citizen should be able to vote, also 2-clickers

by **aVegan** 2011-11-07, 17:57

Ward De Bever wrote:
What is the practical proposal to make this happen? Referenda? State-owned companies? I still have to see the first part of a program that can one day be put into practice here.

If you want referenda, how will you organise them? How will you make them enforceable? If you want real state-owned companies, how will you combine this with the in-game rules that forbids orgs to run companies? How do you see your vision of democracy in practice?

I don't really have an open answer but I do know that having the same person moving the strings since forever is NOT democratic. Also it seems foolish of a state to be dependent on 1 person. In banks they say spread your risks. Something eBe doesn't really understand...

by **NLSP** 2011-11-07, 17:59

fortunately, multiple people have control and power in eBe. We have multiple powerfull parties with members who aren't afraid to take responsibility and loudly speak up (well some of them only for troll reasons, but they still speak up Wink

)

by **Jofroi** 2011-11-07, 19:27

NLSP wrote:Referenda
long time anyone mentioned this.
eh but yeah, that could be an excellent way to deal with stuff.

Tell that to Papandreou :p.

By the way, even if 1 people owned the power for 7 months and that he is elected democratically every months by the citizens, what would be the problem? It would proves that he is doing a good job and that's why he would be reelected.

On the contrary of RL, you cannot forbid democratical voting IG.

by **aVegan** 2011-11-07, 19:53

Jofroi wrote:
By the way, even if 1 people owned the power for 7 months and that he is elected democratically every months by the citizens, what would be the problem? It would proves that he is doing a good job and that's why he would be reelected.

On the contrary of RL, you cannot forbid democratical voting IG.

Democratic countries have laws to prevent that. Why doesn't eBelgium want to learn from history?

by **Jofroi** 2011-11-07, 20:39

aVegan wrote:
Democratic countries have laws to prevent that. Why doesn't eBelgium want to learn from history?

Those laws can be easily overthrown. Look at Russia or Italy for instance.

Anyway, this is irrelevant here as we have a new CP every month.

by **NLSP** 2011-11-07, 20:43

as long as you don't buy gypsygold, you can't falsify the election results Wink

by **Konrad Neumann** 2011-11-10, 16:29

Fhaemita Malodorous wrote:
“The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it comes stronger than their democratic state itself. That, in its essence, is fascism - ownership of government by an individual, by a group,”
- Franklin D. Roosevelt

I think it's appropriate for eBelgium

I agree 100 percent. What Clay said is spot on as well.

I said many times, Ward does not understand the most basic civics. On countless times, he said the CP is the boss. He calls anything otherwise as idealistic or philosophy. He supports an authoritarian vision to say that the admins are the Lords while the rest of us are serfs? He is unfit for power in a liberal democracy.

Ward is unstable. Inviting Beta to be in the cabinet and them calls him a spy for a disagreement. He fires Critically since he starts an SC thing against TR. He states that TR is the boss of the BAF and that TR can steal the orgs etc.

Ward continues to support ThomasRed who is now a traitor, thief, and criminal of eBelgium. Taking our property and our aspiration for normalcy. I am disgusted by the behavior of both Ward and ThomasRed.

by **NLSP** 2011-11-10, 16:41

Konrad Neumann wrote:Ward continues to support ThomasRed who is now a traitor, thief, and criminal of eBelgium. Taking our property and our aspiration for normalcy. I am disgusted by the behavior of both Ward and ThomasRed.

Do you have any proof to say that TR is a thief?
or are these claims totally unfunded and just imaginary?

by **Konrad Neumann** 2011-11-10, 20:14

NLSP wrote:
Konrad Neumann wrote:Ward continues to support ThomasRed who is now a traitor, thief, and criminal of eBelgium. Taking our property and our aspiration for normalcy. I am disgusted by the behavior of both Ward and ThomasRed.
Do you have any proof to say that TR is a thief?
or are these claims totally unfunded and just imaginary?

Taking state orgs which is state funded is not stealing? Also do not give me crap about investment and that it is his company. If BAF is a national army, the state owns it, not ThomasRed. If BAF is a private military, then it should be treated as such. You cannot have both. I do not care who pays for moneys etc. If this is the national army, it is own but the eBE states and the companies should go to the MoD.

Stop this rubbish NLSP. You know better than this. You and your friends cannot have things both ways. A or B, not A and B.

by **Olv007** 2011-11-10, 20:26

Konrad Neumann wrote:
NLSP wrote:
Konrad Neumann wrote:Ward continues to support ThomasRed who is now a traitor, thief, and criminal of eBelgium. Taking our property and our aspiration for normalcy. I am disgusted by the behavior of both Ward and ThomasRed.
Do you have any proof to say that TR is a thief?
or are these claims totally unfunded and just imaginary?

Taking state orgs which is state funded is not stealing? Also do not give me crap about investment and that it is his company. If BAF is a national army, the state owns it, not ThomasRed. If BAF is a private military, then it should be treated as such. You cannot have both. I do not care who pays for moneys etc. If this is the national army, it is own but the eBE states and the companies should go to the MoD.

Stop this rubbish NLSP. You know better than this. You and your friends cannot have things both ways. A or B, not A and B.

Konrad, the companies of TR were NEVER state funded because congress didn't want to fund them. Get your facts straight before accusing someone.

by **NLSP** 2011-11-10, 20:31

Konrad Neumann wrote:
NLSP wrote:
Konrad Neumann wrote:Ward continues to support ThomasRed who is now a traitor, thief, and criminal of eBelgium. Taking our property and our aspiration for normalcy. I am disgusted by the behavior of both Ward and ThomasRed.
Do you have any proof to say that TR is a thief?
or are these claims totally unfunded and just imaginary?

Taking state orgs which is state funded is not stealing?

May I know what state org did he take?
I am sure that the admin's will provide our CP with the necessary details of that state org if you can link us to it...

by **Konrad Neumann** 2011-11-10, 20:56

Olv007 wrote:
Konrad Neumann wrote:
NLSP wrote:
Konrad Neumann wrote:Ward continues to support ThomasRed who is now a traitor, thief, and criminal of eBelgium. Taking our property and our aspiration for normalcy. I am disgusted by the behavior of both Ward and ThomasRed.
Do you have any proof to say that TR is a thief?
or are these claims totally unfunded and just imaginary?

Taking state orgs which is state funded is not stealing? Also do not give me crap about investment and that it is his company. If BAF is a national army, the state owns it, not ThomasRed. If BAF is a private military, then it should be treated as such. You cannot have both. I do not care who pays for moneys etc. If this is the national army, it is own but the eBE states and the companies should go to the MoD.

Stop this rubbish NLSP. You know better than this. You and your friends cannot have things both ways. A or B, not A and B.

Konrad, the companies of TR were NEVER state funded because congress didn't want to fund them. Get your facts straight before accusing someone.

You get your facts right Olv. Think before you talk. The eBE gov gave him a lot of moneys to upgrade and to get companies. These companies are of eBE and not of TR. If he claims that BAF is a national army of eBE, then he is not the owner of it, the end.

@NLSP, the BfB org.

So, what is next guys? What lame excuse or attempts to play ignorant will you do now? ThomasRed is a criminal and a traitor. He left BAF, then return the companies back to the BAF (state) which after all he and you (Olv and NLSP) claim as the national army. Are you recanting that the BAF is only an independent militia?

The national army of eBeligum is not run and controlled by the state? Who are you guys fooling? ThomasRed, if you have any honor and dignity, you will either return the company and the BfB org or you refund all the gold that you got to fund and upgrade your company expansions as well as the BfB org to be returned back to the PP of BfB. Anything less of that is criminal and treasonous and should be treated as such.

by **Jofroi** 2011-11-10, 21:23

State donated money, it was never specified that it was under any condition. Moreover there was nothing such asa contract or whatever.

You cannot state it is state property then.

by **Konrad Neumann** 2011-11-10, 21:37

Jofroi wrote:State donated money, it was never specified that it was under any condition. Moreover there was nothing such asa contract or whatever.

You cannot state it is state property then.

Wrong and now you are using semantics. Is this the best you can do? It is the way people talk in this game. Transfer of money is done via donations. So fine you want me to rephrase? The eBE gov funded the upgrades of state owned BAF companies which ThomasRed refuse to return. Is that better for you Jofori?

It is interesting to see that the Elites and the one that benefit from this tyranny is now the defendant of criminal and treasonous behavior. If Shadow did this, they will be going to the SC and start cases against him. We can see the double standard and the hypocrisy of the Elites like ThomasRed, Ward, Jofroi, NLSP, and Olv. in this case.

If one of your rivals did something wrong they will strike you down with SC cases and public slander. If ThomasRed did it, you justify it and try to play a language game with the tax payers of eBelgium. ThomasRed is not BAF. ThomasRed is not eBelgium. When you will guys represent not ThomasRed but the peoples of eBelgium?

by **NLSP** 2011-11-10, 21:38

Since when is the BfB a state org?
When I was CP, I asked the admins to list all our state orgs, to control things. State orgs can not become a not state org, so if the BfB org was a state org, then it would have been listed. It wasn't listed, so it isn't a state org.

Since the beginning of the BAF it has been clear that the BAF would have companies to work in, trough a so called 'commodate' of TR's companies. For one of these companies, congress voted for a donation (Donations are gifts given without return consideration) to upgrade one of these companies.
From these aspects, nor the State nor the BAF has any property-rights on these companies.

by **Jofroi** 2011-11-10, 21:47

Companies were not BAF companies, companies were TR companies and BAF paid nothing to get there.

If you look at the thread, the risk that TR vanish with the gold has been considered at the time and it was clearly specified that the companies were his companies, not the BAF or the state companies. Moreover, Ward said in the debate topic:

[edit] We don't have enough time. I just donated it to the NBB-BNB in-game account. Can someone perform the upgrade asap? We'll talk about the rest later, with a good glass of beer on the ruins of the Tower of London :-)

Ward didn't even donated the cash to the state, he donated it to the NBB account for the upgrade as he thought that was the way. This step could have been bypassed and nowhere is it stated that the gold was donated to the belgian state.

by **Konrad Neumann** 2011-11-10, 22:11

So quit saying crap like BAF is the national army. When ThomasRed refunds the money that the gov offered to him on the pretense of it being a national army. Since everything is "his his his" then it is not an national army and TR should give back the gold and the funding it get since he lied and let us on a false pretense that it is a national army.

Why do you insist on the double standard? And no Jofroi, the companies are BAF. They are BAF companies with some of TR's funding in it. If you declare it as the national army, it is owned by the state. A private army which a non-state actor owns and runs it is not an national army.

You guys have a choice. Either call it a national army and TR gives everything back, or TR keeps it and refund the funding that BAF has for months as well as the upgrade of company cost.

by **NLSP** 2011-11-10, 22:23

For 1 company there was a law voted to donate TR 75g, that money was in the end paid by WDB.
Why do you speak about companies then?
Companies is plural
1 company is singular
...

by **Olv007** 2011-11-10, 22:32

Konrad, are you so blind that you don't even see how wrong you are? Or is this just a new vendeta against what you call the "Elite"... ? Rolling Eyes

by **ThomasRED** 2011-11-10, 22:34

From the debate topic :

NLSP wrote:For the moment we use (for free) the companies from ThomasRED (who works there for us with full boosters) but he can't pay the 100G upgrade for the Q4 Food company. There has been talks to look how we can change this. So the proposal is that TR will pay 25% of the upgrade and congress approves the other 75%

Ward De Bever wrote:But then I have the 75 gold put aside for this state food company upgrade. Just pondering how to donate it so it's spent wisely.

[edit] We don't have enough time. I just donated it to the NBB-BNB in-game account. Can someone perform the upgrade asap? We'll talk about the rest later, with a good glass of beer on the ruins of the Tower of London :-)

And i could also quote a post from Fhaemita, which could also apply to you Konrad :

Fhaemita Malodorous wrote:@shadowukcs
Keep your biased opinions for yourself, getting tired of hearing them.
We know how you feel about Thomasred. you don't have to keep repeating it.
Also as a congressman you have to do what is good for the country, not make decisions based on personal feelings towards somebody.
So please check personal feelings at the door.

by **aVegan** 2011-11-11, 01:21

Konrad Neumann wrote:So quit saying crap like BAF is the national army. When ThomasRed refunds the money that the gov offered to him on the pretense of it being a national army. Since everything is "his his his" then it is not an national army and TR should give back the gold and the funding it get since he lied and let us on a false pretense that it is a national army.

Why do you insist on the double standard? And no Jofroi, the companies are BAF. They are BAF companies with some of TR's funding in it. If you declare it as the national army, it is owned by the state. A private army which a non-state actor owns and runs it is not an national army.

You guys have a choice. Either call it a national army and TR gives everything back, or TR keeps it and refund the funding that BAF has for months as well as the upgrade of company cost.

by **Jofroi** 2011-11-11, 06:42

Well, technically ThomasRed paid around 200 gold for it while the state paid 75 gold, so it is majoritarily owned by ThomasRed, not by the BAF even if you consider the payment.

by **MaryamQ** 2011-11-11, 07:00

Jofroi wrote:Well, technically ThomasRed paid around 200 gold for it while the state paid 75 gold, so it is majoritarily owned by ThomasRed, not by the BAF even if you consider the payment.

So, if I am not mistaken, the state must pay ThomasRed 200 gold (at least) if it wants to claim this company, and still we are faced with the problem of who is going to "own" it and operate it for the state, because the state can no longer own companies. Do I have that right?

by **Jofroi** 2011-11-11, 07:13

MaryamQ wrote:
So, if I am not mistaken, the state must pay ThomasRed 200 gold (at least) if it wants to claim this company, and still we are faced with the problem of who is going to "own" it and operate it for the state, because the state can no longer own companies. Do I have that right?

Not really. State made a donation but never asked a participation in his company. The 200 gold would be a "fair game"; but there are no obligations, maybe not even moral, to give it back. However once again, it would be Ward de Bever who should have that right, not the belgian state.

And yeah, once the state owns it, we should still have to find someone who could hold it.

At the end, we could also remark that ThomasRed has lend all his companies for a lot of time without asking any cash in return. He lost a lot of money because he has not been able to hire employees and make any profit during this time. Due to the kind and amount of companies involved, this is more than 75 gold ^^.

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