quote

we could also remark that ThomasRed has lend all his companies for a lot of time without asking any cash in return. He lost a lot of money because he has not been able to hire employees and make any profit during this time.

This was his choice...

Kylero wrote:

we could also remark that ThomasRed has lend all his companies for a lot of time without asking any cash in return

This was his choice...

True, but does it make him a villain?

Never said he was a villain.

No, I don't think you have said that Kylero, but many others have said or implied it over the question of this company.

I understand. And I'll let TR speak for himself, but I don't think that he's worried about the profit loss like Jofroi assumes.

I don't think so, either, but that doesn't invalidate Jofroi's point that there WAS a loss of potential profits in service to eBelgium.

Kylero wrote:

we could also remark that ThomasRed has lend all his companies for a lot of time without asking any cash in return. He lost a lot of money because he has not been able to hire employees and make any profit during this time.

This was his choice...

Just like it was congress choice at the moment to not ask for any requirements together with the donation...

I do not think that TR never complained about doing it for free. It was indeed his choice and he will never ask anything back for it. As it was congress choice to donate it without asking anything in return.

Moreover, i don't see neither why people continue to speak of state donation when a citizen made a 75g donation to pay for the q4/q5 upgrade... It's a bit silly to claim today property of my assets while i have offered for free the use of many of my companies, and made investments to let all soldiers working in it (buidling for example more q5 raws companies). The potential profit i lost is around 1m bef, but i knew it, and it exchange the BAF have been able to supplied a difference of +20k guns in 9 months (not counting foods in the first months), which was the objective, and which is something i'm proud...

citizen donates to the state=>gold becomes state property => state donates to TR for upgrade => state becomes co-owner in the companies.

shadowukcs wrote:citizen donates to the state=>gold becomes state property => state donates to TR for upgrade => gold becomes TR's property

I fixed it for you, you just can't change the meaning of donate every time you like it

Except that Ward didnt donate 75g to the state without purpose, he did it because he had to act fast before the end of the upgrade promo and that he wanted to support the BAF and me. The 75 gold of Ward have only transited through the NBB-BNB, nothing more.

But everyone know that already, and some people are just playing a silly game to burn this forum and our country, to be able to say, "hey look, ward is the worst president ever ! o/ told you so :-/" That's a shame, but that's their choice.

MaryamQ wrote:

Jofroi wrote:Well, technically ThomasRed paid around 200 gold for it while the state paid 75 gold, so it is majoritarily owned by ThomasRed, not by the BAF even if you consider the payment.

So, if I am not mistaken, the state must pay ThomasRed 200 gold (at least) if it wants to claim this company, and still we are faced with the problem of who is going to "own" it and operate it for the state, because the state can no longer own companies. Do I have that right?

First, ThomasRED and company state countless times that the BAF is the national army? What does national army mean? It means that the state runs and owns it. The state owns the orgs, companies and the funding of it. eBE did not declare that the BAF is the national army, but TR and his gang did.

TR and his gang abused the system. Since they want a free ride and state funded growth and profit, he basically lied and say it is a national army. He evoke RL patriotism and the Belgian flag to support this.

"About the function of the BAF, i guess that this is your opinion because you're not a real life belgian. I'm sorry to say this, but according to you, there is no point at all to play eRepublik as a belgian citizen, as our country is meaningless and that we can't dream of a better future. If you don't want to try to strenghten "our" country, please go, i won't try to hold you, but i would like to see more constructive remarks that will help us to become stronger, "

Since I am not a RL Belgian you went on a populist rant about better future eBE which the BAF does not bring at all. All the funding and the BAF did was bring free resources and exp for the members in it while denying the normal folk of their benefits. This is socialism for the rich and powerful which is stupid and unjust. This is fundamentally unjust and unBelgian.

shadowukcs wrote:citizen donates to the state=>gold becomes state property => state donates to TR for upgrade => state becomes co-owner in the companies.

This is the point.

NLSP wrote:

shadowukcs wrote:citizen donates to the state=>gold becomes state property => state donates to TR for upgrade => gold becomes TR's property

I fixed it for you, you just can't change the meaning of donate every time you like it

More lame argument? If you are using semantics due to game language, then you are just being lame and petty. You know well that the transaction of cash and gold in the game is called donation. Ironically, it is you who need to stop changing the meaning of donation every time YOU like it.

Besides, that does not prove that the state does not have a stake companies that TR is withholding from the people of eBE. He even admits that a part of it is owned by the state.

ThomasRED wrote:Except that Ward didnt donate 75g to the state without purpose, he did it because he had to act fast before the end of the upgrade promo and that he wanted to support the BAF and me. The 75 gold of Ward have only transited through the NBB-BNB, nothing more.

But everyone know that already, and some people are just playing a silly game to burn this forum and our country, to be able to say, "hey look, ward is the worst president ever ! o/ told you so :-/" That's a shame, but that's their choice.

Wrong again. It is a shame that you believe that you are eBelgium. It is a shame that you do not think the rules apply to you. It is a shame that you abused the system and you destroyed the community of eBelgium. It is a shame that you believe that you must control everything.

When the MU leaders of BAF told TR to release control of the companies so that the BAF does not need a 3rd middle man to make things more efficient etc, ThomasRed quit the BAF and ran off with the companies. First, this shows that the BAF is not an national army and that it is just a private militia. All the crying and screaming of the past about RL Belgium and honor and things was a lie. He goes and bash BCP about not being patriotic in supporting the "army" was bogus. Since it was and is never a national army, he lied in congress for saying it is. Therefore, ThomasRed owns not only the upgrade moneys but also every month of the congress funding of the BAF which was thought to be the national army (which under congress it was discussed as such.) If ThomasRed does not return the funding and the upgrade cost, this is stealing and I can call him as such. This behavior which stealing of state funding as well as his desire for power at the expense of making eBE better (a more streamline and efficient BAF) and his lying to congress about BAF is "a national army" is unpatriotic and I think it is treasonous.

your comments show that you have really no idea what money has been spend on what and under what conditions.
in stead of opening a new topic, I think I will place my quote here in the hope it can inspire some of us

Ludwig Wittgenstein in 'Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus' wrote:Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen.
~~Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent

NLSP wrote:your comments show that you have really no idea what money has been spend on what and under what conditions.
in stead of opening a new topic, I think I will place my quote here in the hope it can inspire some of us

Ludwig Wittgenstein in 'Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus' wrote:Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen.
~~Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent

It is funny that all of ThomasRed gang cannot talk of the issues so they tell people to shut up. Ironically you should heed Wittgenstein's quote. Talking about Wittgenstein, you should know the ideals of context. So you using semantics was lame and shows that you do not understand the main ideas of Wittgenstein's works. Your witchhunt against MG and Shadow was without context.

For words are meaningless without language and context. You play ignorant but we all know that ingame transaction is called donation even if it is a payment etc. So you once again have no idea on what you are talking about. To evoke the ideals of Wittgenstein without understanding the key ideas of Wittgenstein is foolish and counter-productive on your part.

BAF is indeed a national army. Which doesn't means that the state cannot use private ressources as a lending.

Let's imagine that the state use some building that are lend for free by another state. Using it will not make it property of the state, neither give him full right on it.

And let's imagine that the same state destroy a part of the building while using it, or improve it because due to a party, they needed some specific installations. Modifying a good does not make it your own property, unless you signed a specific agreement.

This is what happened here: the state has used a private asset. The fact that the rent was done for free does not give any right on it. And the "improvement" that has been done on it, while not asking any specific modification on the use of the good, has been offered to the owner.

belgium is such a sad place. even when dictators and thieves and traitors are revealed, either everyone is too stupid to realize this, or there is nothing that can be done.

Monsieur Guillotine wrote:belgium is such a sad place. even when dictators and thieves and traitors are revealed, either everyone is too stupid to realize this, or there is nothing that can be done.

*sigh*

It's even sadder because of its former members who keep attacking its current members.

Procuste wrote:

Monsieur Guillotine wrote:belgium is such a sad place. even when dictators and thieves and traitors are revealed, either everyone is too stupid to realize this, or there is nothing that can be done.

*sigh*

It's even sadder because of its former members who keep attacking its current members.

see, this is what im talking about. procuste, do you not see the problems? instead, you just keep talking about me... you're forgetting about THEM.

I see so many members being in each other's face that I can't count how many of them there are.

But what I also see is useless comments coming from former eBelgians written for the sake of bringing an even worse atmosphere to the forum. Being in another ecountry surely helps to see the big picture and would be an asset to your comments if you only used it in a constructive way.

Instead, when I stumble over one of these comments, I only can think about :

You (I mean every single player in that position) have left, so don't come here and display your grumpiness all over the place.

You want to have a legitimacy to shout that you're unhappy ? Easy : don't leave.

Otherwise, stay silent and get involved in wherever you live now. You no longer are with the meanie eBelgians/ elites/ oligarchs/ whatever. Congrats.

*sigh again*

Procuste wrote:

Monsieur Guillotine wrote:belgium is such a sad place. even when dictators and thieves and traitors are revealed, either everyone is too stupid to realize this, or there is nothing that can be done.

*sigh*

It's even sadder because of its former members who keep attacking its current members.

he's right tho.


You just prefer to shut your eyes for it.

The other side only sees us doing all the fighting and the others as innocent angels fighting valiantly for unity. hahaha

Yeah right, I am from the other side which means I am blinded, you got me. Way to go guys. ^^

Procuste wrote:Yeah right, I am from the other side which means I am blinded, you got me. Way to go guys. ^^

I'm not saying you're from the other side, I'm saying you prefer not to see sides because you think that that will make it all better, when it won't.

Fact is:
-we have an admin who tries to silence political opponents and who abuses his power
-we have a former military leader who betrayed his "beloved" army because he had to give in some of his power
-we have a CP who thinks that the mandate of CP = the mandate of a dictator
-we have an admin team that would rather see all of this burn than to give in only a small portion of their power or at least make the job of forum admin available trough democratic process.

I see sides but I'd rather not be involved in it.
I strongly disagree with members from both sides, yet I don't think insulting the others is the right way to procede. Obviously you can say whatever you like and express your feelings, who am I to say the opposite ? The trouble is the way they are expressed.

As for this :

shadowukcs wrote:
-we have an admin team that would rather see all of this burn than to give in only a small portion of their power or at least make the job of forum admin available trough democratic process.

I. Just. Don't. Care. Power issues, not my cup of tea.
You keep saying that the new admin team would be elected by the congress. As a congress member, I think this matter is far less important that other matters.
Can't be more explicit. ^^

If the government gave someone 75gold to upgrade for a company to be used by the national army then congress has a right to demand it back if the company is no longer being used for the intention it received the money in the first place.

No matter how much TR put in in total, the state owned a portion of it. If TR was interested in making a profit, he wouldn't have loaned the companies to BAF for free. You can't right off a debt for a decision that congress had no say in.

betafoxtrot wrote:If the government gave someone 75gold to upgrade for a company to be used by the national army then congress has a right to demand it back if the company is no longer being used for the intention it received the money in the first place.

No matter how much TR put in in total, the state owned a portion of it. If TR was interested in making a profit, he wouldn't have loaned the companies to BAF for free. You can't right off a debt for a decision that congress had no say in.

It was not the government who gave that gold. Ward did. If Ward wants that money back we can continue this discussion. Otherwise it's end of story for me.

no he didn't. Ward donated the gold to the state, making it state money and then the state invested it in TR.

Surely youunderstand the difference between a gift to the state and a state loan?

If Ward didn't think that the companies would be partly state owned he would have given the gold straight to TR, rather than to the bank which loaned gold to TR. If you can find anywhere where Ward specificly states that the 75 gold he will gift shall be used on the companies I'll happily accept it. Just because Ward gifted the state gold does not mean he has a say on what it can be spent on.

I finally found the topic about it: http://www.erepbelgium.com/t2865-military-request-upgrading-q4-to-q5-company

And the part were Ward donated the gold is very interesting:

Ward De Bever wrote:Due to happy circumstances (tax refund by IRL Belgium) i'm able to invest in happiness. First I created Bever Weapons, which will provide cheap weapons to BAF soldiers (details to be discussed). Next the iron wealth in our underground will be exploited. But then I have the 75 gold put aside for this state food company upgrade. Just pondering how to donate it so it's spent wisely.
Do we have a kind of stock market or company holding scheme? If we stakeholders would leave citizenship or die, stock would automatically/legally befall to eBelgium. It's a question of passwords i guess.
[edit] We don't have enough time. I just donated it to the NBB-BNB in-game account. Can someone perform the upgrade asap? We'll talk about the rest later, with a good glass of beer on the ruins of the Tower of London :-)

For me it's not very clear if this was a donation without conditions or if this was a donation that was done very fast because there was not much time before the end of the 50% upgrade action.

Ward is speaking of investing first but then about donations. He does also speak about the state food company and that if the stakeholders (he or TR?) would die or leave citizenship that the stock would be property of eBe.

And on the end that this would be discussed later but until today it wasn't.

Here is my proposition: TR downgrade his company and give back the returned gold (less than 75 due to game mechanics). After that if Ward wants his investment back he can request it to congress who will debate and vote on it.

Here's how I read it. He bought money and didn't spend 75 gold of it because he thought about donating it to the Bank. He specifically says it's a donation, and he's investing in happiness. If people were happy he donated 75 gold, he got his investment returned. He also says about changing CS, and as TR got Polish CS, means Belgium owns it by proxy.

I agree TR should return the money, however it's not Ward's money as of when he donated it.

So olv, if I put my money on the bank and a few days later you go to the bank for a loan for your house, does that mean I'm also shareholder in your house and that it's partly my property as well?


if so, make sure you are home next friday, there's this big beerparty in Brussels I'm going to and I need a place to crash.

Ward wanted to give the 75g for helping me to upgrade q4/q5 food company (upgrade cost 100g), and he donated the gold to NBB-BNB because of the lack of time before the end of the upgrade promo.

If you read the topic, i needed this help back in time because i used daily gold boosters to work in the goal to increase the supplies of our soldiers. In 9 months, i have allowed our soldiers to receive more and more supplies, at a free cost for the State.

Instead of trying to point the finger at me, you should spend your time wisely, for example by working on a new supplies scheme as the BAF don't want to use anymore my companies to be more independant from me and to not be called TR private army.

Lol Olv.

That is a terrible explanation. That means I own most of the houses in America since I have a bank account in Wells Fargo and Back of America .

All you are saying is it is TR's which is not true. It is really funny that the "Wardist" are such flip floppers. From it is the national army that TR will never betray to now it is all TR's. I warned about this problem on my second week as an eBelgium citizen and you lot bashed me down saying it will not happen and that there is nothing wrong with the system. I guess I have the last laugh albeit not funny.

ThmoasRed owns the state at least 75 gold for the up grade and the cash amount of 80 percent of the taxes that goes to the BAF. I hate fraud and Thomas commit fraud. Lying in congress that it is a "national army" that when he is not happy takes away is not a national army. In other national armies, the state owns the org not one individual. So for as long as there is a BAF funding Act and as long as the BAF gets funding as the national army, that sum plus at least 75 gold for the upgrade should be refunded back to the state.

I hope this incident shows the eWorld what kind of person ThomasRed is. It is always about power. When his power is questioned, he use hard power and threats to get what he wants. In the end, he only cares about himself at the expense of the eBE citizens.

ThomasRED wrote:Ward wanted to give the 75g for helping me to upgrade q4/q5 food company (upgrade cost 100g), and he donated the gold to NBB-BNB because of the lack of time before the end of the upgrade promo.

If you read the topic, i needed this help back in time because i used daily gold boosters to work in the goal to increase the supplies of our soldiers. In 9 months, i have allowed our soldiers to receive more and more supplies, at a free cost for the State.

Instead of trying to point the finger at me, you should spend your time wisely, for example by working on a new supplies scheme as the BAF don't want to use anymore my companies to be more independant from me and to not be called TR private army.

Nope, the bank did. Unless you cook the accounting sheet, the back did. Also it is under the bank. If Ward did it himself, it is not under the bank. We are dealing with the accounting sheet, I do not care if Ward gives you money on the side, but on the sheet as well as congress invested in the BAF thinking it is the national army which you disproved. In the end, the Belgian Bank gave gold to you for upgrades, you cannot deny it. It is not Ward that gave it to you but the bank. The bank is a state org and we have the right to the 75 gold as well as the sum of the funding you get from congress for your fraudulent presentation that BAF is a national army.

About my betrayal :

You wanted the BAF to be free of my influence, and to have state owned companies to not have the BAF called TR private army. I said that i agree with you on this last point, that the BAF should be less dependent on me. Then you asked me to move my companies on Director9's land, something i couldn't accept of course. At the end, you wanted to have nothing to do with me, but to still use my companies : i just replied that if you wanted to have the hands free and to be not dependent on me, it was maybe better to not use my companies neither, to see the situation without me helping.

About the others comments, you want me to pay back 495 000 bef to the State because i made them save more than 1 000 000 bef in 9 months ?

If the Congress decide to reclaim me these funds, i will consider the situation. Until then, i just see hate from some people in the only goal to get themselves some "fun"...

shadowukcs wrote:
if so, make sure you are home next friday, there's this big beerparty in Brussels I'm going to and I need a place to crash.

I should ask my money back about your eye surgery. Look at the right, under my avatar. It said: "Flanders", not Brussels...

On the other hand a beerparty in Brussels sounds very interesting

Konrad Neumann wrote:That means I own most of the houses in America since I have a bank account in Wells Fargo and Back of America .

Since when do we compare RL to eRepublik?

ThomasRED wrote:About my betrayal :

You wanted the BAF to be free of my influence, and to have state owned companies to not have the BAF called TR private army. I said that i agree with you on this last point, that the BAF should be less dependent on me. Then you asked me to move my companies on Director9's land, something i couldn't accept of course. At the end, you wanted to have nothing to do with me, but to still use my companies : i just replied that if you wanted to have the hands free and to be not dependent on me, it was maybe better to not use my companies neither, to see the situation without me helping.

About the others comments, you want me to pay back 495 000 bef to the State because i made them save more than 1 000 000 bef in 9 months ?

If the Congress decide to reclaim me these funds, i will consider the situation. Until then, i just see hate from some people in the only goal to get themselves some "fun"...

i think the point is, is that that's NOT your money.

The point is that the moment he couldn't be the supreme leader of the military anymore he left it without a day of notice. Leaving our country, army and soldiers in the cold.

I don't know details but I do have some questions.
Are the soldiers still working for TR his companies? Does the military get any of these resources that are made by OUR soldiers after he left? Or did TR fire them the day he left? Just things I wonder about...

TR fired all the soldiers when he left the MU and gave the remaining supplies to the BAF HC.

Monsieur Guillotine wrote:

ThomasRED wrote:About my betrayal :

You wanted the BAF to be free of my influence, and to have state owned companies to not have the BAF called TR private army. I said that i agree with you on this last point, that the BAF should be less dependent on me. Then you asked me to move my companies on Director9's land, something i couldn't accept of course. At the end, you wanted to have nothing to do with me, but to still use my companies : i just replied that if you wanted to have the hands free and to be not dependent on me, it was maybe better to not use my companies neither, to see the situation without me helping.

About the others comments, you want me to pay back 495 000 bef to the State because i made them save more than 1 000 000 bef in 9 months ?

If the Congress decide to reclaim me these funds, i will consider the situation. Until then, i just see hate from some people in the only goal to get themselves some "fun"...

i think the point is, is that that's NOT your money.

Who are you? Ow yes I remember, you are that guy who fooled the eBe voters to get elected in congress, then left the day after with his 5 gold to go to another country. So not a very reliable person I guess...

Olv007 wrote:

Monsieur Guillotine wrote:

ThomasRED wrote:About my betrayal :

You wanted the BAF to be free of my influence, and to have state owned companies to not have the BAF called TR private army. I said that i agree with you on this last point, that the BAF should be less dependent on me. Then you asked me to move my companies on Director9's land, something i couldn't accept of course. At the end, you wanted to have nothing to do with me, but to still use my companies : i just replied that if you wanted to have the hands free and to be not dependent on me, it was maybe better to not use my companies neither, to see the situation without me helping.

About the others comments, you want me to pay back 495 000 bef to the State because i made them save more than 1 000 000 bef in 9 months ?

If the Congress decide to reclaim me these funds, i will consider the situation. Until then, i just see hate from some people in the only goal to get themselves some "fun"...

i think the point is, is that that's NOT your money.

Who are you? Ow yes I remember, you are that guy who fooled the eBe voters to get elected in congress, then left the day after with his 5 gold to go to another country. So not a very reliable person I guess...

Who gives a f!ck? you are all missing the point. you try to avoid the truth. Thomas STOLE the companies. and all you can talk about is me? good luck to all of you.

(also see the BAF Companies thread).

There's no in-game alternative to citizen ownership of companies. All we can do is trust each other if we want to have shared companies. We generally agree about the need to share companies and their production resources. ThomasRed has done so for nine months, I may be willing to join his effort.

Now the question, what is trust and how to achieve it?

I'd like to point out, I never asked TR to give his companies to D9...

betafoxtrot wrote:I'd like to point out, I never asked TR to give his companies to D9...

You did, private log send in private (pm) to refresh memories. But that's not the point, let's focus on the important thing to achieve : get a new supplies set up, independent from the bad ThomasRed...

ThomasRED wrote:

betafoxtrot wrote:I'd like to point out, I never asked TR to give his companies to D9...

You did, private log send in private (pm) to refresh memories. But that's not the point, let's focus on the important thing to achieve : get a new supplies set up, independent from the bad ThomasRed...

in that case, return the companies the government bought to Betatroxfox, the new leader of the MU. or is that too difficult for you since now you won't be able to be rich?

ThomasRED wrote:

betafoxtrot wrote:I'd like to point out, I never asked TR to give his companies to D9...

You did, private log send in private (pm) to refresh memories. But that's not the point, let's focus on the important thing to achieve : get a new supplies set up, independent from the bad ThomasRed...

I did not and I replied to you to say why

NLSP wrote:

Ludwig Wittgenstein in 'Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus' wrote:Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen.
~~Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent

I should repeat that one more then once...

The BAF or the state didn't bought any company that is now on TR's land.
The state voted for a DONATION of 75g to help upgrade one of TR's companies.

=> why does people keep speaking about companies?