Do you support the merge with eNetherlands?

by Monsieur Guillotine 2011-08-18, 17:38

This is just a poll to see ROUGHLY how the numbers go for supporting the merge. Please vote once per person (no multies! ) so that we can have as accurate a percentage as possible. Very Happy

Yours Truly,
Monsieur Guillontine

by **Critically** 2011-08-18, 17:41

So hard a yes :p

by **shadowukcs** 2011-08-18, 17:52

I'd rather see this poll being done manually like in Congress. I know there are several here who have multiple forum accounts.

by **Olv007** 2011-08-18, 18:19

In favor yes but only under certain conditions and with a majority of people that are willing to take this challenge.

by **Medrolke 2** 2011-08-18, 18:20

shadowukcs wrote:I know there are several here who have multiple forum accounts.

1. Who? I only remember me, Manong's test account and ofc he could use the admin account if he really wanted. Who else has one?

2. We have this list called "Members connected during last 24 hours :". Even if they set it to not show up in that list, an admin or mod can just tell us if someone uses a multi during the poll.

I see no problem if some people want to vote privately.

by **Elynea** 2011-08-18, 18:46

we had this kind of question in the past... you will have no surprise.

by **Jofroi** 2011-08-18, 18:51

Olv007 wrote:In favor yes but only under certain conditions and with a majority of people that are willing to take this challenge.

This is obvious ^^.

Anyway, it's rather obvious that the result will be negative Wink

. We would have the same result for a lot of things that would pass at the end. It remember me during the european campaign (it was in France I think?) when there was a referendum. At first the citizen voted no, but then the "yes" side argued that they haven't made any campaign and thus that the citizens were misinformated. The same phenomenon will appear obviously here.

People don't really know what are the pro/cons, the benefits and the disadvantages of a merge and thus they can't really decide knowing all the elements.

by **Xgentis Lempereur** 2011-08-18, 19:10

No I don't support it, it wouldn't bring us any bonus if the regions are not connected to the capital. Distrust and enationalism would get in the way as well as repetitive RW. It's a waste of money and time it's better to have cordial relation between our 2 independent state and ePoland is kinda in the way.

by **Jery** 2011-08-18, 19:23

Jofroi wrote:People don't really know what are the pro/cons, the benefits and the disadvantages of a merge and thus they can't really decide knowing all the elements.

Jofroi, thanks for depreciating citizens once again !

You've already showed in other topics the way you consider the population :
jamster737 wrote:and you need the whole of belgium to support it
Jofroi wrote:No, just need some people in congress^^.

Do you really think that being silent means that we do not read your neverending discussions ?

The way you seem to think about "citizens" is almost an offense. Looks like we're just here as cattle, without any objective and worthy opinions.

I really hope citizens will remember your points of vue about them instead of your girls pictures when the election's time will come ! I will do.

version française:

Do you support the merge with eNetherlands? 56265593tete-de-mort2-gif

Do you support the merge with eNetherlands? 56265593tete-de-mort2-gif

by **Elynea** 2011-08-18, 19:36

for the merge : a better economy
More citizens.
a new challenge, more fun?
politic : more discussions, more parties, several players will say more challenge.

---------------

against : our relation with ePoland
Our system of politic so different
Our neutrality would be a problem
Maybe our economy would be in troubles
Several players will leave the country
The langage.

by **Jofroi** 2011-08-18, 20:17

Language? You mean english instead of english? :p.

Our relation with Poland isn't really a problem and this could be managed differently.

For the political system, a redrawal of the constitution would have to be done. That'll be a lot of work, but that's not impossible.

Our economy will improve. Even if we just add southern netherlands for now, we'd gain a 20% productivity.

There are other drawbacks, but most of them are technical and can be fixed.

Jery: Yes, I consider a lot of people who are not reacting as rather misinformed. And I don't have a high opinion of them. They follow their friends and they won't do much more for most of them (I didn't said all of them, but most). Thus if the active/answering population can be convinced, the rest will follow like sheeps. BfB knows that very well and has used it a lot in the past.

by **Fhaemita Malodorous** 2011-08-18, 20:39

As stated in other topics.
It will never really work with RW and president elections even when eNL is off the map. It will be a b*tch especially CP elections etc.

by **Jofroi** 2011-08-18, 20:41

RW will only happens if a majority of citizens are against it. If most of them agree, this won't be a problem.

By the way, you're the living proof that eBelgium can have a dutch CP without much problems.

by Hollenboer 2011-08-18, 20:42

YES I DO!!!

hell yeah finally. we need to combine our powers as 2 small country's.

The most common questions will rise with it.

under witch flag and law we go further as one country. Also the board witch we gonna use. Smile

but thats the future.

I will as a Dutch guy if needed talk with eNL about it.

by **Fhaemita Malodorous** 2011-08-18, 20:46

Jofroi wrote:
By the way, you're the living proof that eBelgium can have a dutch CP without much problems.

My point was that with the current game mechanic even though countries are off the map there will still be CP elections (and probably also PP elections). This means if we merge with eNL and they are off the map there will still be CP elections. This will become very messy very quickly every month.

yes I was for the merge, but with the current game mechanics I doubt it will be able to work.

by **Elynea** 2011-08-18, 21:21

a merge is the same like a wedding.

If the couple gets along well, it's the happiness. If one day we speak about the separation, it is catastrophic.

[si le couple s'entend bien, c'est du bonheur. Si un jour on parle de séparation, c'est catastrophique.]

Now, can you speak about the last separation please and the problems we had in the past. I think it's important to inform persons who don't know that.

I shall never forget that. You can make errors in the past but who wants to repeat them? The persons who were inactive in this time. Right or not?

You speak about the flag, it's not important that... because their new players : who will pay for them.
eBelgium of course.

ps : don't forget 2/3 of ebelgians are not in forum for your pool.

by **shadowukcs** 2011-08-18, 21:28

Jery wrote:
Jofroi wrote:People don't really know what are the pro/cons, the benefits and the disadvantages of a merge and thus they can't really decide knowing all the elements.

[i]Jofroi, thanks for depreciating citizens once again !

You've already showed in other topics the way you consider the population :
jamster737 wrote:and you need the whole of belgium to support it
Jofroi wrote:No, just need some people in congress^^.

Do you really think that being silent means that we do not read your neverending discussions ?

The way you seem to think about "citizens" is almost an offense. Looks like we're just here as cattle, without any objective and worthy opinions.

I really hope citizens will remember your points of vue about them instead of your girls pictures when the election's time will come ! I will do.

Boom-headshot!!

I salute you, kind sir, for this great post.

I would watch out tho. Splashdog might say you're a shadowist now

by **jamster737** 2011-08-18, 23:23

shadowukcs wrote:
Jery wrote:
Jofroi wrote:People don't really know what are the pro/cons, the benefits and the disadvantages of a merge and thus they can't really decide knowing all the elements.

[i]Jofroi, thanks for depreciating citizens once again !

You've already showed in other topics the way you consider the population :
jamster737 wrote:and you need the whole of belgium to support it
Jofroi wrote:No, just need some people in congress^^.

Do you really think that being silent means that we do not read your neverending discussions ?

The way you seem to think about "citizens" is almost an offense. Looks like we're just here as cattle, without any objective and worthy opinions.

I really hope citizens will remember your points of vue about them instead of your girls pictures when the election's time will come ! I will do.

Boom-headshot!!

I salute you, kind sir, for this great post.

I would watch out tho. Splashdog might say you're a shadowist now

I agree with Jery you cant treat common citizens like cattle and i have lost confidence in you as the next CP but thats a different matter the face is a large part of the community are against the merge and if ANY people are against it then it shouldnt go ahead congress approval or not

by **Ward De Bever** 2011-08-18, 23:25

Belgium now achieved the main goal to be on the map... a next major goal is to have more Belgium on the map.

A merger is the most realistic way to achieve this. ULA believes in the Fraternity of the Peoples, it's the way to go. If the willing people outnumber the non-willing, a merger can be achieved democratically - the benefits are clear enough.

by **jamster737** 2011-08-18, 23:27

Ward De Bever wrote:Belgium now achieved the main goal to be on the map... a next major goal is to have more Belgium on the map.

A merger is the most realistic way to achieve this. ULA believes in the Fraternity of the Peoples, it's the way to go. If the willing people outnumber the non-willing, a merger can be achieved democratically - the benefits are clear enough.

it still cant be achived because the people who dont like it can RW it back no problem

by **jamster737** 2011-08-18, 23:28

and also if i large group of people dont like it then it shouldnt even be considered full stop

by **xironn** 2011-08-18, 23:32

Ward De Bever wrote:Belgium now achieved the main goal to be on the map... a next major goal is to have more Belgium on the map.

A merger is the most realistic way to achieve this. ULA believes in the Fraternity of the Peoples, it's the way to go. If the willing people outnumber the non-willing, a merger can be achieved democratically - the benefits are clear enough.

If this is something solely decided by congress then you are doing something very wrong.
A matter like this asks for a true referendum, voted by the citizens, not just the congress.

If the amount of Dutch outnumber the Belgians, the downsides are clear enough as well.

by **xironn** 2011-08-18, 23:33

And i demand a at least 2/3 of congress majority Twisted Evil

by **shadowukcs** 2011-08-18, 23:35

Medrolke 2 wrote:
shadowukcs wrote:I know there are several here who have multiple forum accounts.
1. Who? I only remember me, Manong's test account and ofc he could use the admin account if he really wanted. Who else has one?

not going to name anyone as I don't have proof. But it has struck me that during time of polls on non-citizens or non-congressmen forums, the numbers of votes is sometimes tripple or four times the amount of "forum regulars".

Which is why I'd rather see this poll happening in a similiar fashion like we do congress votes.

by **jamster737** 2011-08-18, 23:38

i agree we should do it like we do congress vote to make it as fair as possible

by **Ward De Bever** 2011-08-19, 00:01

In-game elections can act as a referendum... fair enough for democratic content if the parties' and candidate's program is clear.

by **Olv007** 2011-08-19, 00:12

jamster737 wrote:i agree we should do it like we do congress vote to make it as fair as possible

Please do it and ask every voter to motivate their choice (if they want to).

by **Olv007** 2011-08-19, 00:18

Elynea wrote:
Now, can you speak about the last separation please and the problems we had in the past. I think it's important to inform persons who don't know that.

Ely, you know that it was a group from Romania that separated eBE from eNL with the help of the eUS right? The separation was not due to problems between eBE and eNL.

Moreover a lot information can be found here: http://wiki.erepublik.com/index.php/United_Netherlands

by **Medrolke 2** 2011-08-19, 00:20

Olv007 wrote:
jamster737 wrote:i agree we should do it like we do congress vote to make it as fair as possible

Please do it and ask every voter to motivate their choice (if they want to).

Meh...

If it's an actual referendum on whether we should merge or not, then I agree, it should be done that way. This, however, is just a poll to "see ROUGHLY how the numbers go for supporting the merge", so I really don't think it's necessary.

by **Konrad Neumann** 2011-08-19, 05:37

Ward De Bever wrote:In-game elections can act as a referendum... fair enough for democratic content if the parties' and candidate's program is clear.

What are you talking about? Base on what? CP election, congress elections? This makes no sense and is not workable. Has to be a forum vote of some sort.

by **Ward De Bever** 2011-08-19, 05:44

Konrad Neumann wrote:
Ward De Bever wrote:In-game elections can act as a referendum... fair enough for democratic content if the parties' and candidate's program is clear.

What are you talking about? Base on what? CP election, congress elections? This makes no sense and is not workable. Has to be a forum vote of some sort.

You know what elections I mean... If we can execute the merger within the current framework of Belgian laws (why not?) there has "only" to be an in-game CP and Congress willing to follow up on it. No need to accept a forum law before conquering an in-game region. It's not written in any law that Belgium may not possess South Netherlands.

by **Konrad Neumann** 2011-08-19, 05:49

Ward De Bever wrote:
Konrad Neumann wrote:
Ward De Bever wrote:In-game elections can act as a referendum... fair enough for democratic content if the parties' and candidate's program is clear.

What are you talking about? Base on what? CP election, congress elections? This makes no sense and is not workable. Has to be a forum vote of some sort.
You know what elections I mean... If we can execute the merger within the current framework of Belgian laws (why not?) there has "only" to be an in-game CP and Congress willing to follow up on it. No need to accept a forum law before conquering an in-game region. It's not written in any law that Belgium may not possess South Netherlands.

No I do not, CP vote, Congress vote, PP vote? NE vote for the congress?

So if Jofroi wins then the people are pro merge and if not they are against? That is poor logic mate.

by prophexy 2011-08-19, 05:52

Ward De Bever wrote:
Konrad Neumann wrote:
Ward De Bever wrote:In-game elections can act as a referendum... fair enough for democratic content if the parties' and candidate's program is clear.

What are you talking about? Base on what? CP election, congress elections? This makes no sense and is not workable. Has to be a forum vote of some sort.
You know what elections I mean... If we can execute the merger within the current framework of Belgian laws (why not?) there has "only" to be an in-game CP and Congress willing to follow up on it. No need to accept a forum law before conquering an in-game region. It's not written in any law that Belgium may not possess South Netherlands.

I understood about nothing of what you just said, Ward...

by **Ward De Bever** 2011-08-19, 06:08

I will repeat myself a second time on request. If a pro-merger CP and a pro-merger Congress are elected in-game, then, provided respect for the laws and of course a good plan, the merger can be done. Otherwise probably not. Popular opinion will adapt favourably to favourable circumstances ensuing the merger.

by **Ward De Bever** 2011-08-19, 06:28

No forum law forbids us to conquer South Netherlands. If the CP and Congress are willing to attack Netherlands (or Poland, in a variant to the plan), they are democratically legitimised to do so. I do not understand why we would need an additional referendum, unless to malleate public support in one or the other direction. Nothing forbids to have additional votes, it's just that it's useless.

This does not say anything about the content of the good plan that's needed anyway. Good agreements with good neighbours. Some gold to be invested. Military flowcharts.

The economic calculus is easy: going from 1.40 to 1.60 food bonus increases production by 14% but profts more than double (at 0.35 FRM and 110 BEF wages, from 12.5 to 30 BEF per Deer work cycle) - so offering a huge potential for wage increases and higher employee purchasing power. In other words, wages for instance at 128 BEF up from 110 BEF and still 4% higher company profits.

by Monsieur Guillotine 2011-08-19, 06:40

Ward De Bever wrote:No forum law forbids us to conquer South Netherlands. If the CP and Congress are willing to attack Netherlands (or Poland, in a variant to the plan), they are democratically legitimised to do so. I do not understand why we would need an additional referendum, unless to malleate public support in one or the other direction. Nothing forbids to have additional votes, it's just that it's useless.

This does not say anything about the content of the good plan that's needed anyway. Good agreements with good neighbours. Some gold to be invested. Military flowcharts.

The economic calculus is easy: going from 1.40 to 1.60 food bonus increases production by 14% but profts more than double (at 0.35 FRM and 110 BEF wages, from 12.5 to 30 BEF per Deer work cycle) - so offering a huge potential for wage increases and higher employee purchasing power. In other words, wages for instance at 128 BEF up from 110 BEF and still 4% higher company profits.

Ward, I understand that you want the best for Belgium, but the problem I see with your proposals is that it only helps with the economy. Honestly, all I see you putting forth as support for your ideas is that there will be money. Money is important, yes, but that is not EVERYTHING.

There are many other even more important things to building up a strong Belgium. What about the people? As you can see, more than half of Belgium do not want a merge. If you are pressuring Belgians to have a merge, it will just not work. People will start leaving, and what would be the point of that? We don't want our friends to leave, we want them to stay and continue to be active.

Instead of focusing on a merge, why not focus on increasing activity within the newer players of Belgium? Elynea is doing a great job with that, but if we invest a little bit of money now, think of the possibilities we will have created for the improvement of the new generation of Belgian!

by **Ward De Bever** 2011-08-19, 07:13

Monsieur Guillotine wrote:
Ward De Bever wrote:No forum law forbids us to conquer South Netherlands. If the CP and Congress are willing to attack Netherlands (or Poland, in a variant to the plan), they are democratically legitimised to do so. I do not understand why we would need an additional referendum, unless to malleate public support in one or the other direction. Nothing forbids to have additional votes, it's just that it's useless.

This does not say anything about the content of the good plan that's needed anyway. Good agreements with good neighbours. Some gold to be invested. Military flowcharts.

The economic calculus is easy: going from 1.40 to 1.60 food bonus increases production by 14% but profts more than double (at 0.35 FRM and 110 BEF wages, from 12.5 to 30 BEF per Deer work cycle) - so offering a huge potential for wage increases and higher employee purchasing power. In other words, wages for instance at 128 BEF up from 110 BEF and still 4% higher company profits.

Ward, I understand that you want the best for Belgium, but the problem I see with your proposals is that it only helps with the economy. Honestly, all I see you putting forth as support for your ideas is that there will be money. Money is important, yes, but that is not EVERYTHING.

There are many other even more important things to building up a strong Belgium. What about the people? As you can see, more than half of Belgium do not want a merge. If you are pressuring Belgians to have a merge, it will just not work. People will start leaving, and what would be the point of that? We don't want our friends to leave, we want them to stay and continue to be active.

Instead of focusing on a merge, why not focus on increasing activity within the newer players of Belgium? Elynea is doing a great job with that, but if we invest a little bit of money now, think of the possibilities we will have created for the improvement of the new generation of Belgian!

So the communists think that wage increases for the workers and tax income increases for the state are worth nothing? That a stronger Belgium would chase away players? I don't think so. I think we need to offer players something so they can feel really proud of Belgium.

by Monsieur Guillotine 2011-08-19, 07:19

Ward De Bever wrote:
So the communists think that wage increases for the workers and tax income increases for the state are worth nothing? That a stronger Belgium would chase away players? I don't think so. I think we need to offer players something so they can feel really proud of Belgium.

First of all, please do not put words in my mouth or in my party. I also do not like the fact that you single out communists. This has nothing to do with that. In addition, what is wrong with Belgium now? You have to understand that you can not speak for everyone and that people have their different opinions. People do not always value the economical strength that will be increased. Sometimes, they value the strength of the people. The people of the original nation. That is what nationalism is about. In addition to that, what makes you think Dutch people will just want to join Belgium? You have to look at it from both sides.

I understand the benefits to our economy which will occur, but at the cost of what? Losing players? Divisions between the Dutch and Belgians? Issues with 2 Country Presidents? Political parties being absorbed? The neutrality of our safe old nation? These are the things you have to think about that will affect Belgium before you can just make a decision for the whole country.

by **Elynea** 2011-08-19, 09:45

If you read the wiki : The country always had problems with a severe shortage of employees. Although the merger with the Belgians slightly changed this, at that time around 100 extra employees were needed to fill the active companies. But this is now changed completely. There are training companies from the government in all skills and all companies can get enough employees.

-------------------

Now we have already problem to have employees in our country, if we have problem to have a good MM, what do you do with more regions, more companies, more problem with the money?

You must know one thing, if a country decides to merge, if it's a good thing, we must stop to be selfish, yes.

But if it's a merge to lost our citizens, flag of ebelgium or not. A new player who begins the game in eNL will be ebelgian.

by **shadowukcs** 2011-08-19, 10:04

The economic part of the union can just as easily be Acquired by renting a region from either France, eUK or eGER.

It would be less hassle, easier, much faster arranged and easier returned in case things don't work out the way we want them to be.

In the mean time, dutch citizens are more than free to apply for citizenship if they want.

by **Boklevski** 2011-08-19, 10:36

Well, there isn't a "Yes, if..."-option (language, flag, a positive stance of ePoland on it), so I'll have to go for "No" for now...

Being Dutch and hopefully having left a tiny bit of reputation in eNL, I could join Hollenboer in the talks with eNL if needed, though. Wink

by **Olv007** 2011-08-19, 10:53

There should indeed be a "Yes, if... " option in the voting thread.

by **Elynea** 2011-08-19, 12:13

Ward you explain the change in eBelgium, what should be the change for eNL?

what about their Mm? what do you make to stabilize eNL, when they will be in eBelgium.

I see in this moment to be clear :

Do you support the merge with eNetherlands? 110819121904752001

Do you support the merge with eNetherlands? 110819121904752001

by **shadowukcs** 2011-08-19, 13:49

Elynea wrote:Ward you explain the change in eBelgium, what should be the change for eNL?

what about their Mm? what do you make to stabilize eNL, when they will be in eBelgium.

I see in this moment to be clear :

they will have to exchange their currency to ours, obliging us to print extra or flooding our market. the eBE state will then probably need to buy up hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of NLG, which, at 1:1rates will be a huuuuuuge cost for us. We will then either need to use congressgold to print BEF's at the cost of 1BEF=0,005G (whereas the market value of BEF is only 0,003 so a huge loss in other words), OR we will need to stop funding the BAF/BTA budget for a couple of months (5-10 months or something) to get the necessary funds together to convert it.

Back in the first union, the BEF was 0,025 or something. Printing BEF and exchanging it wasn't a cost. Now, in the current economic climate, the cost of exchanging the BEF for NLG would astronomically huge for the eBelgian state.

by **shadowukcs** 2011-08-19, 13:57

Assuming that there is 1 million NLG in circulation (I think ppl can agree that this is a realistic amount for a country their size), the cost for eBelgian state to convert their NLG (that's at 0,002G atm) to our BEF (which we would print at 0,005G) would be 3000 gold. And that's just the cost exchanging for their NLG... call it "integration costs"

Then we haven't even talked about them joining the army and the extra costs this will cause for the military, ... nor have we talked about them wanting to start new parties (40G per party) or MU's (40G per MU),...

I'd make a rough estimation of the full cost of the merge on 3500-4000 gold.

I know jofroi and Ward will, no doubtably dispute this, but if they are honest than they know that the cost of merge will be astronomically high.

by **Konrad Neumann** 2011-08-19, 15:12

Ward De Bever wrote:I will repeat myself a second time on request. If a pro-merger CP and a pro-merger Congress are elected in-game, then, provided respect for the laws and of course a good plan, the merger can be done. Otherwise probably not. Popular opinion will adapt favourably to favourable circumstances ensuing the merger.

This view of "democracy" is dangerous and is not even called democracy. I mean with your logic, why even have a congress forums etc? Why bother debates at all? Also people vote for certain candidates not solely on one issues. Some might vote for X and some for Y. How do you know what the supporters vote for individually.

You claim to be the defender of the constitution but this breaks every letter and the spirit of the constitution. For absorbing/ merging or whatever you want to all it requires a huge constitutional overhaul as well as approval first. Will you favor in changing the constitution from 2/3 congress to 2/3 docketed votes then if it means you can have your merger? I think there are huge inconsistencies in Wards political stance lately. It seems while he is "defending the constitution" on issues he does not like but against it or willing to disregard it totally for issues he supports.

by **Elynea** 2011-08-19, 15:23

The democracy is not dangerous. The voice of the population.
I don't see why it is dangerous.. The liberty of vote.

by **Konrad Neumann** 2011-08-19, 15:47

Elynea wrote:The democracy is not dangerous. The voice of the population.
I don't see why it is dangerous.. The liberty of vote.

I said Ward's view of "Democracy" is dangerous. He thinks winners takes all. The problem is, he assumes that the voter agrees with 100 percent of the party members. Look at Splashdog. He is a ULA member. He supports many issues that ULA and ATO supports. However, he is anti merging. With Ward's view and version of democracy, if Ward continues to support his party, he must in default support the merge.

Democracy is not a winner takes all type of game. Each vote does not mean I support the party or the candidate 100 percent. However, this version of "democracy," and it is under quotes, shows the dangers and the flaws of his argument. Instead of seeing the individual points of views and instead of respecting the rights of the individual views, Ward will have a winner takes all type of game. If the party wins CP and controls congress who needs forum votes etc... This violates the constitution and this violates not just the spirit of the law but the spirit of democracy itself.

by **Elynea** 2011-08-19, 16:06

I don't think like you.

The democracy is the political system in which the people are sovereign.

Of course this definition is not the same in the game.

Several parties : Various opinions

For me (personal opinion) you can find a part of the democracy.
The population is free to vote, it is free to choose his president.
We stop saying: you vote for a person or the other one.
You listen what the population wants.... more solidarity.

I'm for the donate of the CM. Why ? because no need golds to work for a country. The "golds" help to have new mpp for everyone.

The president makes a good communication in game to see the comments and to have an idea about ebelgians...

This kind of things it's a part of democracy, yes !

by **shadowukcs** 2011-08-19, 16:11

Elynea wrote:I don't think like you.

The democracy is the political system in which the people are sovereign.

Of course this definition is not the same in the game.

Several parties : Various opinions

For me (personal opinion) you can find a part of the democracy.
The population is free to vote, it is free to choose his president.
We stop saying: you vote for a person or the other one.
You listen what the population wants.... more solidarity.

Ely, I believe that's the same as what Konrad says.

Elynea wrote:I'm for the donate of the CM. Why ? because no need golds to work for country. The "golds" help to have new mpp for everyone.

you do know that the MPP's aren't paid with the congress gold? MPP's are paid with the taxes from income tax. Congress gold has nothing to do with our MPP's.

also: see my post above ( https://ebelgium.forumotion.net/t4009-do-you-support-the-merge-with-enetherlands#75701)

Unless some one wants to pay roughly 700 euro's go acquire another 2100 gold (to add to the 1800G we have in our jewcave), we won't be able to merge.

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